UST and SBT combination?

[michael76]

Hello do you think a UST & SBP blending will improve the piezo quack and the overall sound of a guitar?Quite general question but I'm interested in your feedback

[MrErikJ]

There’s some good dual source options out there, like the PUTW Dynamic Duo and Trio and the Open to Source Sensor equivalents sounds great as well. The Baggs iMix w/Element and iBeam is really adjustable but I think the K&K Powermix with the Pure Mini and Fantastick UST is really good and a bit underrated. Everyone uses the Trinity but I always thought the Fantastick added some nice clarity and stability to the Pure Mini

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by michael76

Hello do you think a UST & SBP blending will improve the piezo quack and the overall sound of a guitar?Quite general question but I'm interested in your feedback

The Open To Source Sensors UST is fairly SBT-like by itself. When running through a PA system I hear zero quack from it. I generally use it with TomeDexter, but it sounds pretty good on its own. Here's a recording from a night when I left ToneDexter home and just used a Zoom A3 preamp for a bit of EQ.

https://youtu.be/m3QuvWeAHVo


Here's a link to David Emke's Open To Source Sensors company.

https://opentosourcesensors.com/

[michael76]

Thanks for the replies.Maybe I wasn't clear enough,what I meant is that I have a piezo in my guitar and the on board pickup has an aux input to add another pickup.If I connect a soundboard pickup and blend it with the piezo will I see any significant improvement in my sound?Does it worth a try?

[Gordon Currie]

No.

My opinion is that there might be 'interesting' sounds available with this combination, but having used UST since 1989 and now SBT since 2014, I feel strongly that the only way you will improve on the quack of a UST is to replace it with an SBT - or turn down the UST signal to zero.

It's sort of like cooking - if you had a dish that was too hot because you used the ghost pepper chilies, you wouldn't throw milder ancho chilies in there to 'cool things down.'

[MrErikJ]

Originally Posted by michael76

Thanks for the replies.Maybe I wasn't clear enough,what I meant is that I have a piezo in my guitar and the on board pickup has an aux input to add another pickup.If I connect a soundboard pickup and blend it with the piezo will I see any significant improvement in my sound?Does it worth a try?

The PUTW Quackbuster is made specifically for that purpose, it’s worth checking out.

[shufflebeat]

Previous relevant thread:

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=150474

I've been co.sidering this myself - timely.

It might however compromise the linearity of the acoustic/electric correlation on which the Tonedexter seems to rely heavily so I might hold off for now. Please post back if you explore further.

[GuitarLuva]

I thought from your other thread you were set on a Fishman Aura Spectrum DI? I said it in the other thread Tonedexter is your best solution for what you're trying to accomplish. If you're dead set on installing a SBT in that guitar with the current UST and don't want to buy an expensive preamp i recommend the Schatten HFN SBT. Use it on it's own, keep the UST off and only try to blend them when you run into a feedback situation. That pickup alone will give you a nice quack free sound with some "air".

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by michael76

Thanks for the replies.Maybe I wasn't clear enough,what I meant is that I have a piezo in my guitar and the on board pickup has an aux input to add another pickup.If I connect a soundboard pickup and blend it with the piezo will I see any significant improvement in my sound?Does it worth a try?

How does your guitar's preamp operate? Does it blend in the Aux In signal onboard or does it simply pass along the signal via the ring channel of a stereo or stereo-to-Y cable?

Is this one of the Takamine preamps that we can find a manual for? Its my understanding that with those preamps an RCA connector can be used to connect a second pickup. Considering how the Tak's palathetic pickup is designed, I'm not sure where the SBT would be secured. However, I'm sure its been done. Here's a thread on the subject of adding a second pickup to one of the Tak preamps.

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=445194

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by michael76

Thanks for the replies.Maybe I wasn't clear enough,what I meant is that I have a piezo in my guitar and the on board pickup has an aux input to add another pickup.If I connect a soundboard pickup and blend it with the piezo will I see any significant improvement in my sound?Does it worth a try?

Hi michael

The sound profile of an Under-Saddle-Transducer and a Sound-Board-Transducer are more similar than different. The point of building dual source rigs is to find two profiles which are different enough so you can create a more natural sounding guitar sound.

All my dual source rigs have always included a pickup and an internal microphone. I have used both under-saddle with a mic, and sound-board-transducer with a mic rigs, and I prefer the sound of the Sound Board Transducers (less piezo-ish sounding).

So my thought is "No combining the two you suggest will not significantly improve your sound".

I have seen the trend swinging over the past 15 years to a lot of players removing the under-saddle pickups and replacing them with Sound-Board-Transducers. The K&K Pure Mini is by far the most popular.

Most players don't want to hassle with dual source rigs. They pretty much want a point-n-shoot solution (plug-n-play), and adding a second pickup/mic/source complicates the rig.

If your goal is to just make your current sound a little different, then adding a second pickup of any kind will give you a little different sound. If your goal is to get the best sound possible, then either replacing the under-saddle-piezo with a Sound Board Transducer, or switching to a dual source comprised of a pickup and mic is still the 'default' move in that direction.

Hope this adds to the discussion.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

The Open To Source Sensors UST is fairly SBT-like by itself. When running through a PA system I hear zero quack from it. I generally use it with TomeDexter, but it sounds pretty good on its own. Here's a recording from a night when I left ToneDexter home and just used a Zoom A3 preamp for a bit of EQ.

https://youtu.be/m3QuvWeAHVo


Here's a link to David Emke's Open To Source Sensors company.

https://opentosourcesensors.com/

Sounds Good, Gary!

[michael76]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

How does your guitar's preamp operate? Does it blend in the Aux In signal onboard or does it simply pass along the signal via the ring channel of a stereo or stereo-to-Y cable?

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=445194

The Tak's preamp is Cool Tube 1 and I saw that Takamine suggests this SBP as an Aux input so I was wondering if it does anything to the sound. I thought maybe it would be better to fix the sound at the source than a pedal.

https://www.takamine.com/soundboard-transducer

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by michael76

The Tak's preamp is Cool Tube 1 and I saw that Takamine suggests this SBP as an Aux input so I was wondering if it does anything to the sound. I thought maybe it would be better to fix the sound at the source than a pedal.

https://www.takamine.com/soundboard-transducer

From what I can tell from this drawing, the palathetic pickup is placed right under the saddle, which is the usual place to attach a soundboard pickup. On the plus side, there appears to be plenty of room to attach the soundboard transducer on the other side of the bridgepins. I'd get a Schatten Design HFN or an Open To Source Sensor #27 and install it parallel to the bridge pins on the other side of the bridgeplate. You'll definitely want to get one of those two products as they allow for temporary installations (with tape or putty) which can be moved and experimented with. It would be possible, for instance, to attach the SBT so that its signal is out of phase with the palathetic pickup and the positioning would need to be reversed to get a good blend of signals (presuming you wanted to blend, as opposed to just using the SBT by itself).

Taking a look at the Cool Tube preamp manual, I see that they specify a "medium impedance soundboard pickup" and that there's a switch to choose from two gain options. The Cool Tube designer, Mike Markure, used to be a forum member, and I can recall him discussing the preamp some years ago. I'm guessing that "medium impedance soundboard pickup" refers to the K&K Pure Mini and that the Schatten Design and OTSS SBTs would be in the same neighborhood with respect to impedance. If you're not feeling adventuresome, however, you can get the Tak SBT and install it exactly where they advise.

Oops. This is the link for CTP-1:
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/13...?page=8#manual

It appears that the two pickups can actually be blended before the EQ section, or that the EQ section would apply to the SBT if you only wanted to use that pickup and leave the other pickup at zero level. I'm not sure about that, but it seems to be the logic of how this preamp is designed. It really does seem to be a "cool" preamp design.


If it were me, I'd get in touch with David Enke at Open To Source Sensors and ask him if one of his SBTs has ever been used with a Cool Tube preamp. At the very least, he could send you the pickup pre-wired to an RCA connector. I'd go for the simpler #27 SBT, as I've personally had better results with that model.

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

Sounds Good, Gary!

I keep telling folks that David Enke's USTs are a different animal, but its an uphill battle. The conventional wisdom is that a UST is a UST is a UST.