Dave's K&K Pickup Manifesto

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by Groberts

I strongly disagree that UST + Mics never fully provide that "woody tone." I also feel mics add 'air' but they also add some 'organic' tone where SBT's or UST's alone can sound a bit artificial. (For lack of a better word)

I may be known as an LR Baggs Anthem Fan boy. So be it. I have not found better. I recorded this yesterday and could easily spend a little more time dialing it in. I am merely sharing because I hear a very natural, authentic acoustic tone amplified. In fact, "Organic" is a word someone used to describe how they characterized this sound.

I agree that the Anthem is an excellent system (my personal favorite from a soundman's perspective) and I agree that your recorded sound here is lovely. I just don't agree that listening to slow tunes soaked in verb is a very good way to evaluate a pickup. Peter Autschbach sold me on the Shadow NanoFlex that way.

https://youtu.be/XwS5LcgWyNE

The NanoFlex turned out to be the most feeback-prone UST I'd ever tried, and it didn't sound that great after I EQed out enough low mids to fix the feedback problem. The DTAR Wavelength which I installed next was much better by comparison - better in tone and better in feedback resistance.

[Groberts]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

I agree that the Anthem is an excellent system (my personal favorite from a soundman's perspective) and I agree that your recorded sound here is lovely. I just don't agree that listening to slow tunes soaked in verb is a very good way to evaluate a pickup. Peter Autschbach sold me on the Shadow NanoFlex that way.

https://youtu.be/XwS5LcgWyNE

The NanoFlex turned out to be the most feeback-prone UST I'd ever tried, and it didn't sound that great after I EQed out enough low mids to fix the feedback problem. The DTAR Wavelength which I installed next was much better by comparison - better in tone and better in feedback resistance.

Point well taken. I make sweeping assumptions since I know what the guitar delivers acoustically and I hear the natural woody acoustic tone regardless of the verb I used on that recording. I just happened to have recorded it yesterday and felt it was "organic" and Woody.

I can easily make a recording with no reverb and "Woody tone" will definitely be in abundance.

[Petty1818]

I think the cool thing with pickups is that there are so many choices that everyone can find something that makes them happy. My problem with the Anthem is that I honestly have never heard a demo of it that has made me go "wow!". I think I keep coming back to it because others love it so much. The problem with it for me is that there's this weird high end presence and a bit of a honky mid range that I always hear. When I use it live, I just can't dial it out. I tried it on Saturday and by the end of the night, I had dialed the tru-mic out completely. With that said, it's awesome that others love it and I think Lr Baggs is a fantastic company so I love that there's a system out there that's pleasing so many musicians.

On a side note, my other guitar player has a Taylor guitar from 2000 that has a barn door control set up and the Matrix blend system. He doesn't know much about gear but his wife bought him the Spectrum DI. On Saturday, his rig sounded amazing. Made me realize that I have been spending a bit too much time on gear as that's the system I first started with over six years ago!

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by MUSICAL HOBO

Let me start by saying I don't own a 2000, 5000, or 15000 dollar Guitar, if you do I'm happy for you. The last guitar I bought was a Simon and Patrick SP 6
hog/spruce that I paid $120 for and over the period of a year installed a bone nut and saddle, experimented with strings until I found the set that sounded best to my ear and then tried different picks until I found a couple that worked best for the different types of song I play and sing. I also bought a K&K look a like pick up and installed it myself. I perform with a Fender Acoustasonic 100 amp and a
Behringer ADI21, my total rig coast me under $500. What's my point, some of us love guitars and performing but live on a limited incomes, I myself live quite well on about $1100 a month if, I look for good deals and control the GAS. To often on this forum members with the latest wiz-bang equipment make condescending remarks about the equipment those of us that have to watch how much we spend purchase. I guess what I'm trying to point out is if you can afford the latest wiz/bang equipment,that's great but don't assume everyone else can or should. Walk a mile in the other persons shoes once in a while.

I agree and empathize with your comment. Since, I don't know whom your comment was directed to, hopefully you didn't find anything I wrote "elitist." Cheers

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by MUSICAL HOBO

Let me start by saying I don't own a 2000, 5000, or 15000 dollar Guitar, if you do I'm happy for you. The last guitar I bought was a Simon and Patrick SP 6
hog/spruce that I paid $120 for and over the period of a year installed a bone nut and saddle, experimented with strings until I found the set that sounded best to my ear and then tried different picks until I found a couple that worked best for the different types of song I play and sing. I also bought a K&K look a like pick up and installed it myself. I perform with a Fender Acoustasonic 100 amp and a
Behringer ADI21, my total rig coast me under $500. What's my point, some of us love guitars and performing but live on a limited incomes, I myself live quite well on about $1100 a month if, I look for good deals and control the GAS. To often on this forum members with the latest wiz-bang equipment make condescending remarks about the equipment those of us that have to watch how much we spend purchase. I guess what I'm trying to point out is if you can afford the latest wiz/bang equipment,that's great but don't assume everyone else can or should. Walk a mile in the other persons shoes once in a while.

I haven't personally noticed that at all to be honest. I feel like everyone here is pretty accepting and nice. At times there are disagreements about gear in terms of people maybe not liking a certain product but I haven't noticed the negativity towards those who use more affordable systems. It sucks that you feel this way though. I will have to watch how I phrase things in the future.

[Groberts]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I haven't personally noticed that at all to be honest. I feel like everyone here is pretty accepting and nice. At times there are disagreements about gear in terms of people maybe not liking a certain product but I haven't noticed the negativity towards those who use more affordable systems. It sucks that you feel this way though. I will have to watch how I phrase things in the future.

Scott, You are always level and considerate in my experience. :-) Even though I may disagree about acoustic PU's to only 'some degree', I've heard some of your recordings and you get a great sound. Very polished and Pro and you always represent with ton's of respect. That's how I see it. I am very grateful for the contrast and counterpoint in the ways we are alike and in the ways we differ.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Groberts

I must say; I don't understand how the term "Cartoon" is all that applicable in the context of what appears to be optimizing the performance of a K&K Pick up?

Where did the "cartoon" reference come from and how does it relate? Color me confused Dave. (Love your commentary, but that frame of reference throws me off balance)

Gary, I'm making an analogy. I'm comparing methods of reproducing sound to methods of reproducing an image. It's perhaps a little confusing. But, I'm a complicated guy trying to make a complicated topic sound simple. :-)

[Groberts]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

Gary, I'm making an analogy. I'm comparing methods of reproducing sound to methods of reproducing an image. It's perhaps a little confusing. But, I'm a complicated guy trying to make a complicated topic sound simple. :-)

Definitely a bit abstract to this 'one dimensional brain', but that's my problem. LOL I still enjoy the content. Thanks for sharing!

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by Groberts

Scott, You are always level and considerate in my experience. :-) Even though I may disagree about acoustic PU's to only 'some degree', I've heard some of your recordings and you get a great sound. Very polished and Pro and you always represent with ton's of respect. That's how I see it. I am very grateful for the contrast and counterpoint in the ways we are alike and in the ways we differ.

Haha what fun would it be if we agree on everything?!

[Monsum]

When I got a K&K pickup installed in my Gibson I wasn't very impressed. After that (and before as well) tried many solutions which promised more faithful acoustic tone. And they did deliver that.
Although I've never been entirely happy with any of them.

But now, I start to appreciate the simplicity and tone of the pure mini pickup, it could be that I lowered my expectations or my ears got used to it. Especially in a live setting many pickups sound more than adequate, K&K is one of them.
Add to the signal chain a preamp with a proper impedance and sweepable mids and you're good to go. The Schatten HFN that I have in the other guitar sounds more natural but for non-guitar players it doesn't matter.

So it could be a journey in which you end up where you started, in the meantime spending a lot of money which I don't regret as this brought me where I am with understanding the amplification of acoustic guitars.

A good thread by the way, I always like combining gear stuff with a deep philosophical reflection.

[Dirk_Z]

Here is an example of a direct and dry recording.
K&K pure mini with just a bit of the mic from a Fishman Rare Earth blend.

www.polyphon-recording.de/k&k+mic2.zip

I don´t know how it will sound through a PA system or how big of a problem feedback will be.

Dirk

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I think the cool thing with pickups is that there are so many choices that everyone can find something that makes them happy. My problem with the Anthem is that I honestly have never heard a demo of it that has made me go "wow!". I think I keep coming back to it because others love it so much. The problem with it for me is that there's this weird high end presence and a bit of a honky mid range that I always hear. When I use it live, I just can't dial it out. I tried it on Saturday and by the end of the night, I had dialed the tru-mic out completely. With that said, it's awesome that others love it and I think Lr Baggs is a fantastic company so I love that there's a system out there that's pleasing so many musicians.

On a side note, my other guitar player has a Taylor guitar from 2000 that has a barn door control set up and the Matrix blend system. He doesn't know much about gear but his wife bought him the Spectrum DI. On Saturday, his rig sounded amazing. Made me realize that I have been spending a bit too much time on gear as that's the system I first started with over six years ago!

I agree with everything you say here, I've been very vocal about my problems with the full Anthem system in my dread, and yet, I still have two guitars with the Infinity Matrix system that I can always get a good live sound out of. I just can't bring myself to pull those pickups out of the guitars they are in. I just wish you would try your B-Band system

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I haven't personally noticed that at all to be honest. I feel like everyone here is pretty accepting and nice. At times there are disagreements about gear in terms of people maybe not liking a certain product but I haven't noticed the negativity towards those who use more affordable systems. It sucks that you feel this way though. I will have to watch how I phrase things in the future.

I also should watch they way I phrase things. I think sometimes the negativity comes from me trying to find a pickup/preamp that works for what I want to hear, and it gets frustrating when I keep on pouring money into these systems only to have them come up short. I definitely don't want others to have to go through the frustration! Fortunately, I have found systems in some of my guitars that give up the goods daily that I make my living with.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

Here's the sound which you're referring to, Pure Mini > Grace Design Preamp. They even miked an amp to get part of the sound in this recording, but it still sounds sterile to me. For my taste, having some mic character blended in would be a noticeable improvement.

https://youtu.be/mEqNkxJDMVA


I played my last amplified performance without ToneDexter. When I listened to the gig recording, however, I definitely missed hearing some mic character in the sound.

Thanks, Gary. I too would run this rig with a ToneDexter to help take away the brittleness I hear in the signal.

[martingitdave]

I'm finished. I exceeded the word count limit for the thread. So, I guess that's all he wrote folks!