Questions on improving intonation (tone)

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza

That shouldn't happen, if you cut the nut slots FIRST with the neck dead atraight, THEN add relief. Otherwise you're chasing your tail.

Why is that?

[mirwa]

Originally Posted by bausin

>> Cutting the nut height has nothing to do with relief, saddle height, 12th fret height, it is measured and cut independent of everything else>>

I cut the slot with 5-10 mils of relief and there was no buzzing. Then I reduce the amount of relief and the string buzzes. I set the relief back to the original amount and the buzzing is gone. So how can you both claim that the order of cutting the slots and setting relief doesn't matter?

Let me change the subject so you may understand it a different way.

If I put a new fret in, has it got anything to do with string height/relief/saddle height etc, no it doesn’t, it’s simply a fret that must match the height of the other frets, your nut is no different, it has a height it should be cut too which is independent of the rest of the guitar and relative to the height of the frets, it’s that’s simple.

Originally Posted by bausin

Let me try a geometrical argument as well. You both say to just set the nut slot height to the plane of the fret tops. That's fine if the neck is straight, i.e. no relief. But when you add relief, you are bowing the neck. There is no fret plane anymore and the tangent created by frets 1 and 2 will intersect the nut at a point lower than when the neck was straight.

Nope, the height of the frets between 1 and 2 will not change with truss rod adustments

Steve

[mirwa]

Originally Posted by Will Kirk

I agree. For your amusement here is some local talent from a shop in my area. This was considered complete when the client took delivery of it. This shop claims to have done work for people like Zakk Wylde. They charged the client 450$ for the full refret and the new nut.

Yes just appalling is it not.

Steve

[redir]

Originally Posted by bausin

>> So it doesn't matter whether you adjust the saddle height first, the relief or anything else, if the nut slots are the same height as the frets then you are set.

>> Cutting the nut height has nothing to do with relief, saddle height, 12th fret height, it is measured and cut independent of everything else

I cut the slot with 5-10 mils of relief and there was no buzzing. Then I reduce the amount of relief and the string buzzes. I set the relief back to the original amount and the buzzing is gone. So how can you both claim that the order of cutting the slots and setting relief doesn't matter?

Then you cut it too low

You should be able to have the neck flat or with relief and have no buzz. If it buzzes when flat and not with relief then you cut it too low.

Try this on that same guitar, play the first fret with relief then play the first fret when flat.... Any buzz?

Again, just think of the nut as a zero fret. If you build a guitar with a zero fret then you are essentially setting the height of the strings at the nut to the same level of the frets before you set the relief, saddle height and so on.

[bausin]

>> That shouldn't happen, if you cut the nut slots FIRST with the neck dead atraight, THEN add relief. Otherwise you're chasing your tail.

Louie,

So you're saying that the order of cutting the slots and adding relief does matter.

Thanks

[D. Churchland]

Originally Posted by mirwa

Yes just appalling is it not.

Steve

Indeed. I'm just befuddled that this was even let out of the shop.

[bausin]

"If I put a new fret in, has it got anything to do with string height/relief/saddle height etc, no it doesn’t, it’s simply a fret that must match the height of the other frets, your nut is no different, it has a height it should be cut too which is independent of the rest of the guitar and relative to the height of the frets, it’s that’s simple."

So when you add new fret(s), do you level the frets with the neck straight or with relief? Or do you maintain it doesn't matter?

[mirwa]

Originally Posted by bausin

So when you add new fret(s), do you level the frets with the neck straight or with relief? Or do you maintain it doesn't matter?

If the fret matches height, neither.

If you want to do a fret level, then you can level the frets flat or strung up, which process is better is subject to the ability of the neck to not change shape under tension.

When I cut a nut, I typically cut the slots to 5 thou higher than the first fret, but everyone has there own magic number.

Steve

[redir]

Originally Posted by bausin

So when you add new fret(s), do you level the frets with the neck straight or with relief? Or do you maintain it doesn't matter?

Correct. if the fret in front of the fret that you are fretting is the same height (and your saddle of course is not ridiculously low) then you will not have buzz. Same goes for the nut.

I always level the fretboard dead flat because I use a long sanding beam. If I have a guitar in for repair with a neck that cannot get adjusted then I will use a shorter 6in flat file. That way I am sure that the frets are level within that 6in range which is a moving target over the fretboard. The important thing there again is that the frets just in front of the frets are level, 7 frets down stream might be off because of a twist but that won't matter either just so long as the frets in front of them are the same... Clear as mud?

And we are talking thousands of an inch here. Extreme cases notwithstanding.

None the less if you do level with the relieve in place (look at the Katana system thread just started the other day for example) and then straighten out the neck flat and you have buzz say on the 1st fret then that is because the 1st fret is too low. Again assuming your saddle height is not too low, but if it was then you would have buzz on more then the 1st fret.

[bausin]

>> If I put a new fret in, has it got anything to do with string height/relief/saddle height etc, no it doesn’t, it’s simply a fret that must match the height of the other frets ...

>> I typically cut the slots to 5 thou higher than the first fret, but everyone has there own magic number.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by bausin

Louie,

So you're saying that the order of cutting the slots and adding relief does matter.

Thanks

I'm not Louie, but, yes, absolutely it does matter. Changing the shape of the neck changes the string height relative to the frets. Obviously, it doesn't do so uniformly.

Aside from one's own experience, here's one reference with measurements: http://www.bryankimsey.com/setup/neck_relief_1.htm

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Why is that?

Originally Posted by bausin

Louie,

So you're saying that the order of cutting the slots and adding relief does matter.

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

I'm not Louie, but, yes, absolutely it does matter. Changing the shape of the neck changes the string height relative to the frets. Obviously, it doesn't do so uniformly.

I've seen so many nuts cut too low because the relief is set, then the nut slots are cut relative to the string height at the first fret. Then they find out that the strings are too high at the 7th-15 frets, so they adjust the trussrod to lower the action there and then - BUZZ! So they shim the nut to remove the buzz, and they end up with action higher than ideal at the nut, with likely a string geometry that is not as conducive to good sound since they'd also lowered the saddle in the process. Heck, I used to do that as well when I first started playing.

The way I do it on my guitars is set the neck up (or more correctly, the fret plane) dead straight under tension. I then add some relief, about .005"-.007", and make sure that the neck is bending the way that I want. I then restraighten the neck, and cut the nut slots very close to level with the first three frets, but I do leave a tiny bit so that they wear and setting in perfect. Then I adjust the saddle height to get the action where I want at the 12th. Now I play it and check for any buzz, and slowly add relief till the buzz goes, and by then I'm between .003"-.005" or maybe more depending on string gage. Then and only then do I make a final adjustment on the saddle, but the nut is never touched after I set the slot heights.

Some builders actually build the "relief profile" they want into the fretboard, and use the trussrod only to counteract the string pull. Which I'd generally agree with, since the rate of relief should move rapidly through the first 5 frets, then start tapering off toward the 7th-9th frets, flatten out headed to the 14th, then fall away slightly pass the 16th. All rough distances, but that would give the absolute lowest action, while keeping the fret heights as uniform as possible. But for most my applications, this is picking nits as most all I've built for could not really detect the difference.

I should add that the trussrod orientation can play a role in how the neck bends. If the adjustment is at the body, the trussrod ends somewhere around the 2nd to 3rd frets. The wood from there to the nut is plenty strong but it could conceivably bow depending on the neck profile, wood, thickness, etc. Maybe an exception would be a compression-type single rod which runs the entire length, with the adjustment on either side. The other configuration would have the trussrod nut at the headstock, also stiffening the area between the first and third fret significantly, and ending around the 15th or 16th fret or such, where there is more wood anyway. I feel that for those using CF to complement a trussrod, the extra stiffness would require fretboard shaping to the desired relief profile as I stated above, since the trussrod is not used to control the fret topology as with the traditional method.

[Alan Carruth]

LouieAtienza wrote:
"If the adjustment is at the body, the trussrod ends somewhere around the 2nd to 3rd frets. "

The rods I get adjust at the body end but end up at the nut.

[redir]

For the sake of argument just pretend that there is no such thing as a nut, that all guitars just have frets on up to zero then the strings go to the tuning posts. So all ya got is frets. To build a guitar like that you would level the fretboard, install the frets, then level and dress the frets. Then you would string it up and set the action at the saddle and the relief. The guitar would be set up perfect.

Now just remove that fret and install a nut in it's place. The slots of the nut are the exact same height as the fret you just removed. IOW the nut is really just another fret...

IDK how to explain it any better but that's all there is to it. The nut is just a fret, it doesn't matter when in the process of doing a set up you cut the nut slots, before or after setting the saddle height, before or after setting in the relief, what ever. IT don't matter. As long as that nut is the same as the frets you are good to go.

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by redir

For the sake of argument just pretend that there is no such thing as a nut, that all guitars just have frets on up to zero then the strings go to the tuning posts. So all ya got is frets. To build a guitar like that you would level the fretboard, install the frets, then level and dress the frets. Then you would string it up and set the action at the saddle and the relief. The guitar would be set up perfect.

Now just remove that fret and install a nut in it's place. The slots of the nut are the exact same height as the fret you just removed. IOW the nut is really just another fret...

IDK how to explain it any better but that's all there is to it. The nut is just a fret, it doesn't matter when in the process of doing a set up you cut the nut slots, before or after setting the saddle height, before or after setting in the relief, what ever. IT don't matter. As long as that nut is the same as the frets you are good to go.

I think we're all in agreement about this. There was some discussion as to whether the nut should be cut beforeor after relief is set, of which I stated it should be before, while the neck is flat. Otherwise you don't have a fret plane to reference off.

But this does not always guarantee a perfect setup because the neck doesn't always bend exactly the way we need it to - i.e. it doesn't bend at all at the first 3-4 frets. Then, either the board or frets need to be adjusted to allow the correct relief. Otherwise you'd need to raise the saddle slightly to compensate.