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  #16  
Old 12-05-2017, 02:37 PM
JonWint JonWint is offline
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Originally Posted by Otterhound View Post
.....Just in case you are wondering , I am doing this exact thing with a pinless bridge design .
In fact , the bridge is actually being held down on to the top with my setup .
A pin bridge provides some clamping force since the strings barrel/ball ends are pushing the bridge plate up and the strings coming over the saddle and bridge are pushing the bridge into the top.

A pinless bridge provides no clamping force. All forces are resisted by glue shear strength and tensile strength.
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  #17  
Old 12-05-2017, 02:45 PM
JonWint JonWint is offline
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Originally Posted by Otterhound View Post
......With a pinless bridge as I am doing it , there is no upward force to the rear of the saddle on the bridge as is with pins . Since the conventional pins are anchored in the bridge , the strings , from below are leveraging the bridge upwards and away from the top wood .
As I am doing it , the upward force is transmitted through the top towards the bottom of the bridge , but not pulling upwards on the bridge itself . Thus , torque on the bridge itself in greatly minimized and nearly eliminated or , in the least , balanced . .........
See my previous post. In pin bridges, the string forces do not push the bridge up as long as you have a functioning bridge plate.

Pinless bridges only have glue shear and tensile strength to resist string forces unless they changed statics principles that I studied 47 years ago.
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  #18  
Old 12-05-2017, 02:51 PM
Otterhound Otterhound is offline
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Originally Posted by JonWint View Post
A pin bridge provides some clamping force since the strings barrel/ball ends are pushing the bridge plate up and the strings coming over the saddle and bridge are pushing the bridge into the top.

A pinless bridge provides no clamping force. All forces are resisted by glue shear strength and tensile strength.
Bridge pins are anchored into the bridge and the resulting force against them creates a vertical force to the rear of the bridge . Combined with the torque force at the saddle and you have a setup that is actually working against itself through both ends .
As I am doing a pinless bridge , the vertical force/stress is spread across the entire bridge plate . Glue shear is virtually eliminated as the top is sandwiched between 2 objects that are trying to meet each other .
Point being that I am NOT anchoring the strings to any point of the bridge . They simply pass through it and over it .
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  #19  
Old 12-05-2017, 03:59 PM
JonWint JonWint is offline
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Originally Posted by Otterhound View Post
Bridge pins are anchored into the bridge and the resulting force against them creates a vertical force to the rear of the bridge . ......Point being that I am NOT anchoring the strings to any point of the bridge . They simply pass through it and over it .
Bridge pins are not "anchored" into bridges.

Are you talking about anchoring your strings at a tailpiece? That's not the standard definition of a "pinless" bridge.
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  #20  
Old 12-05-2017, 05:08 PM
printer2 printer2 is offline
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Originally Posted by Otterhound View Post
And there will also be compression to the top .
With the strings breaking over the top of the bridge before reaching the saddle , there will also be a downward force at that contact point . That contact point is rearward of the saddle and will serve to counter the torque that you refer to .
With a properly shaped saddle , the torsional force will be minimized as well as providing some downward force .
With a pinless bridge as I am doing it , there is no upward force to the rear of the saddle on the bridge as is with pins . Since the conventional pins are anchored in the bridge , the strings , from below are leveraging the bridge upwards and away from the top wood .
As I am doing it , the upward force is transmitted through the top towards the bottom of the bridge , but not pulling upwards on the bridge itself . Thus , torque on the bridge itself in greatly minimized and nearly eliminated or , in the least , balanced .
I can only wonder if I am relating what I am trying to say clearly .
The shape of the saddle has little to do with it. The torque is produced by saddle height. The strings pulled at an angle produces two forces. Parallel to the top and at a right angle to the top. At some point at the bottom of the bridge these two will cause a rotational torque.

Got to this page of posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otterhound View Post
...As I am doing a pinless bridge , the vertical force/stress is spread across the entire bridge plate . Glue shear is virtually eliminated as the top is sandwiched between 2 objects that are trying to meet each other .
Point being that I am NOT anchoring the strings to any point of the bridge . They simply pass through it and over it .
So you are anchoring the stings at the bottom of a plate underneath the top. So really a pined arrangement but at a shallower angle I suppose. Hard to be sure without a diagram.
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  #21  
Old 12-05-2017, 05:52 PM
LouieAtienza LouieAtienza is offline
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Originally Posted by Otterhound View Post
Point being that I am NOT anchoring the strings to any point of the bridge . They simply pass through it and over it .
May be helpful to post a quick sketch of what it is you're trying to explain... Batson guitars have strings anchored by the tail block, and pass through the back of the bridge and over the saddle. High end Alvarez guitars have a pin block separate from the bridge. Jeff Babicz has the strings anchored around the perimeter of the soundboard, with a through string block behind the bridge providing string angle to the saddle. I remember Ray Kraut once designed a floating "tailpiece" that rested against the bridge or so where the strings were anchored, and went through the back of the bridge and over the saddle.
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  #22  
Old 12-05-2017, 06:24 PM
Otterhound Otterhound is offline
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Originally Posted by JonWint View Post
Bridge pins are not "anchored" into bridges.

Are you talking about anchoring your strings at a tailpiece? That's not the standard definition of a "pinless" bridge.
What are bridge pins anchored to ?
No tailpiece .
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  #23  
Old 12-05-2017, 06:37 PM
Otterhound Otterhound is offline
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Originally Posted by LouieAtienza View Post
May be helpful to post a quick sketch of what it is you're trying to explain... Batson guitars have strings anchored by the tail block, and pass through the back of the bridge and over the saddle. High end Alvarez guitars have a pin block separate from the bridge. Jeff Babicz has the strings anchored around the perimeter of the soundboard, with a through string block behind the bridge providing string angle to the saddle. I remember Ray Kraut once designed a floating "tailpiece" that rested against the bridge or so where the strings were anchored, and went through the back of the bridge and over the saddle.
I am familiar with these .
They are so complicated .
Don't know if I want to give this up quite yet . Maybe I was wrong to interject this .

Maybe this will help to get some thinking caps on . Sorry that I don't have any closeup/s of the bridge at this time . I love simple .
Sorry again Louie , my computer skills are rather limited , so I don't know how to generate a drawing .
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  #24  
Old 12-05-2017, 06:48 PM
LouieAtienza LouieAtienza is offline
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Originally Posted by Otterhound View Post
I am familiar with these .
They are so complicated .
Don't know if I want to give this up quite yet . Maybe I was wrong to interject this .

Maybe this will help to get some thinking caps on . Sorry that I don't have any closeup/s of the bridge at this time . I love simple .
Sorry again Louie , my computer skills are rather limited , so I don't know how to generate a drawing .
I remember that neck from one of the Woodstock shows... Tough to tell from the photo so the thinking caps are really on. String-through from inside?

I was think more along the lines of manual drawing hehehe
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  #25  
Old 12-05-2017, 07:06 PM
Otterhound Otterhound is offline
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Originally Posted by LouieAtienza View Post
I remember that neck from one of the Woodstock shows... Tough to tell from the photo so the thinking caps are really on. String-through from inside?

I was think more along the lines of manual drawing hehehe
This prototype has a twisted path . All in all , it turned out very well , being that it is number 1 acoustic with the headstock design . Oddly , I came up with the pinless bridge concept in process and decided to incorporate it into the build along the way . Guess I won't be spending money on reamers .
This little 12 fret 0 sure has a big voice . I will use both features going forward as well as using a single plane neck and headstock . I see no reason to use an angled headstock any more . It's a waste of good wood .
Yes , string through from inside . And it is very simple . Don't overthink it .
I will do a better bridge photo later since I have gone this far .
I'm just not going to give up what's going on underneath because I love to see people earn things . That way is so rewarding for everyone in the end .
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  #26  
Old 12-05-2017, 07:18 PM
LouieAtienza LouieAtienza is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otterhound View Post
This prototype has a twisted path . All in all , it turned out very well , being that it is number 1 acoustic with the headstock design . Oddly , I came up with the pinless bridge concept in process and decided to incorporate it into the build along the way . Guess I won't be spending money on reamers .
This little 12 fret 0 sure has a big voice . I will use both features going forward as well as using a single plane neck and headstock . I see no reason to use an angled headstock any more . It's a waste of good wood .
Yes , string through from inside . And it is very simple . Don't overthink it .
I will do a better bridge photo later since I have gone this far .
I'm just not going to give up what's going on underneath because I love to see people earn things . That way is so rewarding for everyone in the end .
I did a build a while ago that actually had "keyholes" for each string. This worked great.. for a while. The keyhole slots didn't fare too well inside the bridge plate. Working on an idea right now as well. The guitar looks good, nice to see your neck finally on a guitar!
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  #27  
Old 12-05-2017, 08:20 PM
Otterhound Otterhound is offline
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Originally Posted by LouieAtienza View Post
I did a build a while ago that actually had "keyholes" for each string. This worked great.. for a while. The keyhole slots didn't fare too well inside the bridge plate. Working on an idea right now as well. The guitar looks good, nice to see your neck finally on a guitar!
I have done 2 electrics with the design , but I needed an acoustic to test .
I had the neck and the body completed and handed them off to have a finish done .
The man that I gave them to , almost immediately ended up with a series of medical issues that had me waiting roughly 2 years . Some of those issues were his wife's . Anyway , I somehow knew that something was amiss and did not press the issue .
The day before I was going to call him about taking it back and doing a simple finish just to complete the build he called and told me that it was ready .
His wife's knees are repaired as well as her cataracts and he now has a semi-colon . I am just glad to hear that things worked out for him and his . He is lucky to be alive .
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