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  #1  
Old 12-01-2017, 04:44 PM
SongwriterFan SongwriterFan is offline
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Default Tondexter: thoughts and questions

I was listening to a friend of mine perform a few days ago and her battery quit working on her Taylor ES1-equipped guitar. She got the sound guy to mic it (SM-58, I think) and it sounded a lot better to me than what it was sounding like just before the battery croaked.

So, I decided to order myself a Tonedexter to do some experimenting on my own guitars (and possibly hers, and other singer/songwriters I know).

This leads me to a few thoughts/questions:

1) Has anybody tried this product yet with an ES1 Taylor, and if so, how were the results? I intend to try it out. I guess we'll see.

2) If one likes the way his guitar sounds mic'd through an SM57 / SM 58 / etc (or other relatively inexpensive mic), I don't see the point in buying/renting a high-end condenser mic to use with the Tonedexter. Seems to me if you want your guitar to sound like it does mic'd through an SM57, then you should use the SM57 with the Tondexter.

3) Lots of people play with feedback-busters on their acoustics, which will muffle the actual acoustic sound. I'm assuming that one could use the Tonedexter to record/train the sound WITHOUT the feedback-buster on, but then play the guitar through the Tonedexter WITH the feedback-buster on and still get a very good results.

4) Similarly, I wonder if one cold record/train with the Tone Dexter using (insert favorite brand of strings here and age of strings), but then play back later with some other set of strings and get most of the sound associated with the (insert favorite brand here) ? Think "I love the sound of Martin Titanium strings" but I don't like paying $40 a set for them. So, buy ONE set of the strings and train with the Tonedexter, but later play back through the ToneDexter using Martin Retros (as an example), instead. Might still get most of the benefit of the higher-dollar strings (tone-wise) without having to continually buy high-dollar sets? Or maybe be able to play OLD strings a lot longer through the Tondexter and still get "new string" sound?
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  #2  
Old 12-01-2017, 05:18 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SongwriterFan View Post
I was listening to a friend of mine perform a few days ago and her battery quit working on her Taylor ES1-equipped guitar. She got the sound guy to mic it (SM-58, I think) and it sounded a lot better to me than what it was sounding like just before the battery croaked.

So, I decided to order myself a Tonedexter to do some experimenting on my own guitars (and possibly hers, and other singer/songwriters I know).

This leads me to a few thoughts/questions:

1) Has anybody tried this product yet with an ES1 Taylor, and if so, how were the results? I intend to try it out. I guess we'll see.

2) If one likes the way his guitar sounds mic'd through an SM57 / SM 58 / etc (or other relatively inexpensive mic), I don't see the point in buying/renting a high-end condenser mic to use with the Tonedexter. Seems to me if you want your guitar to sound like it does mic'd through an SM57, then you should use the SM57 with the Tondexter.

3) Lots of people play with feedback-busters on their acoustics, which will muffle the actual acoustic sound. I'm assuming that one could use the Tonedexter to record/train the sound WITHOUT the feedback-buster on, but then play the guitar through the Tonedexter WITH the feedback-buster on and still get a very good results.

4) Similarly, I wonder if one cold record/train with the Tone Dexter using (insert favorite brand of strings here and age of strings), but then play back later with some other set of strings and get most of the sound associated with the (insert favorite brand here) ? Think "I love the sound of Martin Titanium strings" but I don't like paying $40 a set for them. So, buy ONE set of the strings and train with the Tonedexter, but later play back through the ToneDexter using Martin Retros (as an example), instead. Might still get most of the benefit of the higher-dollar strings (tone-wise) without having to continually buy high-dollar sets? Or maybe be able to play OLD strings a lot longer through the Tondexter and still get "new string" sound?
I might get corrected on some of my points but here are my thoughts:

1) I haven't heard of anyone trying the ES.1 with the Tonedexter but it's worth a shot. The only issue might be with the neck magnetic pickup. I thought on later ES models, the blend could be adjusted but not sure about that.

2) There's nothing wrong with trying the SM57 and you might get great results. I just think with the Tonedexter, there's so much room for experimentation that it's hard to stick with one mic. However, people seem to be getting great results with the 57.

3) Record your guitar with the feedback buster off and then add it for live performances. Just like the Aura, the feedback buster won't impact the plugged in tone with the Tonedexter, it doesn't work that way. The wavemap is already created so the feedback buster will not dampen your tone.

4) I have wondered that as well. I was considering playing with strings that were not brand new and maybe even increasing my action a bit to get a deeper tone when recording and then putting it back for live playing. I assume that the wavemap will sound like the strings/action that was originally used for the recording. However, if you then switch to new strings for live playing, you might just have to adjust the eq but this is the case with any preamp and new/old strings.
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Old 12-03-2017, 12:06 PM
Gordon Currie Gordon Currie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SongwriterFan View Post
2) If one likes the way his guitar sounds mic'd through an SM57 / SM 58 / etc (or other relatively inexpensive mic), I don't see the point in buying/renting a high-end condenser mic to use with the Tonedexter. Seems to me if you want your guitar to sound like it does mic'd through an SM57, then you should use the SM57 with the Tondexter.

3) Lots of people play with feedback-busters on their acoustics, which will muffle the actual acoustic sound. I'm assuming that one could use the Tonedexter to record/train the sound WITHOUT the feedback-buster on, but then play the guitar through the Tonedexter WITH the feedback-buster on and still get a very good results.

4) Similarly, I wonder if one cold record/train with the Tone Dexter using (insert favorite brand of strings here and age of strings), but then play back later with some other set of strings and get most of the sound associated with the (insert favorite brand here) ? Think "I love the sound of Martin Titanium strings" but I don't like paying $40 a set for them. So, buy ONE set of the strings and train with the Tonedexter, but later play back through the ToneDexter using Martin Retros (as an example), instead. Might still get most of the benefit of the higher-dollar strings (tone-wise) without having to continually buy high-dollar sets? Or maybe be able to play OLD strings a lot longer through the Tondexter and still get "new string" sound?
2- If you LIKE the sound of an SM57, then stick with that. No is forcing you to use a mike you don't want.

3- Consider losing the feedback buster altogether. You don't want it while training and with the phase/EQ control of the Tonedexter, you may not need it onstage (as long as you are using the Tonedexter!).

4- Unlikely. Tonedexter works by measuring the difference between what the mike hears and what the SBT/UST hears AT ONE POINT IN TIME. It is not continually recalculating AFAIK. So it will sound best when you have the same strings as when you trained, but when you have cheap/old strings the result will be muffled.
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  #4  
Old 12-03-2017, 12:40 PM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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With respect to using a feedback buster in performance with ToneDexter, I suspect that would work pretty well.

Try this experiment, record directly off your pickup without the feedback buster in the guitar. and then with the feedback buster in the guitar. If both signals sound very similar, then you can expect that ToneDexter (as instructed by the WaveMap) will process those signals with similar results.
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  #5  
Old 12-03-2017, 04:06 PM
James May James May is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SongwriterFan View Post
I was listening to a friend of mine perform a few days ago and her battery quit working on her Taylor ES1-equipped guitar. She got the sound guy to mic it (SM-58, I think) and it sounded a lot better to me than what it was sounding like just before the battery croaked.

So, I decided to order myself a Tonedexter to do some experimenting on my own guitars (and possibly hers, and other singer/songwriters I know).

This leads me to a few thoughts/questions:

1) Has anybody tried this product yet with an ES1 Taylor, and if so, how were the results? I intend to try it out. I guess we'll see.

2) If one likes the way his guitar sounds mic'd through an SM57 / SM 58 / etc (or other relatively inexpensive mic), I don't see the point in buying/renting a high-end condenser mic to use with the Tonedexter. Seems to me if you want your guitar to sound like it does mic'd through an SM57, then you should use the SM57 with the Tondexter.

3) Lots of people play with feedback-busters on their acoustics, which will muffle the actual acoustic sound. I'm assuming that one could use the Tonedexter to record/train the sound WITHOUT the feedback-buster on, but then play the guitar through the Tonedexter WITH the feedback-buster on and still get a very good results.

4) Similarly, I wonder if one cold record/train with the Tone Dexter using (insert favorite brand of strings here and age of strings), but then play back later with some other set of strings and get most of the sound associated with the (insert favorite brand here) ? Think "I love the sound of Martin Titanium strings" but I don't like paying $40 a set for them. So, buy ONE set of the strings and train with the Tonedexter, but later play back through the ToneDexter using Martin Retros (as an example), instead. Might still get most of the benefit of the higher-dollar strings (tone-wise) without having to continually buy high-dollar sets? Or maybe be able to play OLD strings a lot longer through the Tondexter and still get "new string" sound?
Early on we tried an ES-1 with magnetic sensors. It did not play well with ToneDexter; it had trouble training which is expected for magnetic pickups.

If you like what an SM57 does to your guitar, ToneDexter will deliver most of that sound with its WaveMap. So there would be no need to buy a different mic.

Train TD without the sound hole cover, and then for playback use it if you need to. It has very little affect on the final sound through TD in our experience.

Perhaps counter-intuitively, ToneDexter training is virtually independent of the kind of strings you use. In other words, you'll create the same WaveMap with all kinds of strings and tunings, etc. It also doesn't care whether you finger pick or flat pick during the training. This makes it very nice, as you can shape the playback experience however you want (strings, picking) and will sound like you expect it to.
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  #6  
Old 12-03-2017, 04:24 PM
SongwriterFan SongwriterFan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James May View Post
Early on we tried an ES-1 with magnetic sensors. It did not play well with ToneDexter; it had trouble training which is expected for magnetic pickups.
Well, that's too bad, but I hope to prove you wrong.

It doesn't really matter to ME (I don't play out at all), but I was hoping to help improve the sound of this one friend's guitar when she plays out.

I'll be testing with MY ES-1 equipped-Taylor, but I will have to wait now until I can get the internal fuse replaced. Can't imagine how a fuse blows when the guitar hasn't been plugged in for several years, though.


Quote:
It also doesn't care whether you finger pick or flat pick during the training. This makes it very nice, as you can shape the playback experience however you want (strings, picking) and will sound like you expect it to.
I was wondering about that. Not sure how that's possible. Shouldn't the microphone pick up a LOT of noise from the pick, but the pickup shouldn't pick up much of that noise at all?


Thanks for the input!
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  #7  
Old 12-03-2017, 05:25 PM
Hotspur Hotspur is offline
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James, my question about the Tonedexter involves the use of a stage guitar, like the piezo on a Godin A6.

It's not a guitar that's really meant to be miked. Do you think the Tonedexter would work well if you used the wavemap from another guitar on the A6?
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  #8  
Old 12-03-2017, 05:33 PM
James May James May is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotspur View Post
James, my question about the Tonedexter involves the use of a stage guitar, like the piezo on a Godin A6.

It's not a guitar that's really meant to be miked. Do you think the Tonedexter would work well if you used the wavemap from another guitar on the A6?
Yes, probably so, if the other guitar has a typical under saddle pickup. I agree that miking a guitar like the A6 will not yield anything too pleasant.
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