DPA for guitar and vocal in untreated room?

[frankhond]

I'm at a crossroads so to speak. I own a few pretty good mics and recording devices. But my livingroom acoustics messes it all up.

I'm either going for a collection of DIY temporary treatment solutions (Frans panels etc) and put in time to learn mic placement and the like. But my living situation with wife and kid motivates me to look for alternatives.

Or I get a DPA 4099g and a DPA (?) headset mic, and theoretically bypass the issue of room acoustics.

My questions are:

Would the DPAs reject enough of the room to sound good?
If so, which mic for vocal (DPA has a zillion of headset mics)? Or is this idea just plain wrong?

I play solo fingerstyle acoustic and sing pretty gently (think John Hurt and Will Oldham). Want to record mainly for YouTube and other web publishing. I have plenty of computer power to add reverb etc but look for a pretty straight 60's folk sound.

If I want to make a CD I probably go to a studio.

No live gigs in the foreseeable future but you never know.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Doug Young]

There's no magic to the DPA as far as fixing bad acoustics. It's just a hypercardiod mic that gets mounted really close. You can do the same thing with an external mic. I've never had completely satisfying results recording with the 4099 - it sounds good, but because it's attached to the guitar, it tends to pick up every tiny body noise on the guitar. You'll likely have similar issues with a headset vocal mic, you won't have a pop filter, for example.

Maybe post an example of your recording so we can hear the problem? What are the mics you're using? The rest of your gear? I have a properly treated studio room, but I've recorded in my living room, pretty typical space (and the webcasts I've been doing have been shot there) and the difference in sound is fairly subtle. With close micing, and playing with location in the room, you should be able to get a very acceptable sound for You Tube, and casual recording.

[frankhond]

Doug you're right - I can get an ok sound by really close-miking the guitar. I have a Rode NT3 (record either into an xlr audio interface to my Mac or xlr input of my HVX200 camera) and a Sony PCM-d50 (very respectable at 24bit).

The issue is that when trying to record both vocals and guitar, I have to move the Rode away from me to get a balanced sound and immediately it sounds boxy and echoey. Same with the Sony. I can finagle with the Rode to closemic the vocal but the guitar disappears.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by frankhond

The issue is that when trying to record both vocals and guitar, I have to move the Rode away from me to get a balanced sound and immediately it sounds boxy and echoey. .

Use two mics, one for vocals, one for guitar (which is what you seem to be proposing). If you want to buy something new to help with the process, consider a pair of figure-8 mics. Check out Fran's demo of how to do guitar+vocals with them:

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/...figure-8-mics/

But I suspect for You Tube, as long as you're OK not doing too much separate processing of the two sources, any two mics will work. Or use a pickup and vocal mic. Or just record the audio on your Mac - two mics - the mix and sync to video. Or, with the gear you have, use the Sony for the guitar and put the Rode on your voice, and again, sync the two tracks.

[frankhond]

I had forgotten about the figure 8 thing. In fact now I remember an article in SOS about using this setup not only to separate the mics but also to reject the back part of the room. This was done by placing an absorbing panel right behind the mics, which blocked the redundant half of the 8. I'll go borrow another rode and see if I can do something with this. Thanks for reminding me.

So if I understand you correctly, you advise against instrument and head mounted DPAs for studio use?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by frankhond

So if I understand you correctly, you advise against instrument and head mounted DPAs for studio use?

It could work for you, but the noise it picks up from guitar handling, clothes rustling, and so on is always an issue for me. (Tho I'm thinking in terms of a good quality recording, You Tube is less critical) You also have more limited placement options, so I don't see what it buys you in a studio setting over a regular stand-mounted mic, unless it's just a convenience to not have a mic stand. At $600, it's not particularly a budget solution either. I'd vote for a pair of mics on the guitar anyway, for recording. The 4099 is terrific for live use, I just don't see what problem is solves for you in your situation. Headset mic, I haven't tried in the studio, but it also seems to me there's a reason you don't see people using them there. Again, mostly a question of what's the benefit? You're locked into one type of mic, attached to your head where you can't get away from it to breathe, etc. And no sonic benefit over more usual vocal mic.

Of course, if what you're looking for is some sort of clean visual look with a minimal mic on the guitar and a nearly invisible vocal mic, that might make this approach worthwhile, but I don't see how it solves any acoustics issue.

I think the easiest solution for you is just use what you have, put the Sony on the guitar and use your Rode for vocals. Close mic both, and you've already said that works fine. Then just mix to taste.

[moon]

A couple of panels around the mic will help stop first reflections from, eg, a nearby wall - and that could be a big help - but they won't do anything about the general sound bouncing around the room. If you can hear a metallic, ringing sound when you clap your hands you could be in trouble, unless you get in real close.

Unfortunately figure 8's have proximity effect in spades. It depends how bad the room is whether that's a problem.

You should be able to get closer with an omni (none at all) or any other mic with a reputation for a gentle proximity effect like the EV RE20 (almost non-existent) or maybe an ADK A6 which isn't in the RE20 league but is quite gentle and gradual compared to other condensers I've tried.

[frankhond]

Doug, many thanks for the detailed evaluation of the DPA! I will hold off on it. A fellow student at my guitar class was going to buy one, I'll try it out after the summer. In the meantime I will explore the two-microphone idea instead and focus on choosing the right mics for my particular situation.

Moon, I googled the EV RE20 and it turns out to be used a lot by Thom Yorke, one of my favourite singers. My voice is kind of that general type so this was a great tip, big thanks! I will do my best to get my hands on one as soon as I can. Curious if it works on acoustic guitar as well.

Any other microphones that I should look into as well for this kind of application besides the EV RE20, or is it unique in its kind?

[Ty Ford]

Hi Frank,

First, learn to sing and play at relatively appropriate levels. Don't know if this is your problem, but some folks I know get over excited when they try to sing and play, playing too loudly. The fix is very simple. DON'T PLAY SO LOUD! The louder you sing or play, the more the acoustics of the room become involved. If you're quiet enough not to excite the room, you won't hear it as much. Learn to balance your vocals and playing and life gets a lot more fun.

How many mics in this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFjqiM8sw9s

Where are they?

BTW, reverb was added.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[moon]

An SM7b could also be worth a look although it's got more mids than the RE20. The latter was designed to have a fairly flat frequency curve. If gain is a problem, a fethead should fix it.

I don't think either will be good on acoustic guitar though, if you're looking for a natural sound. Dynamics will round off transients, losing some of the sparkly detail. If you're looking for a softer sound, that might not be so bad but a good ribbon would be better because they'll still capture some transient information. Now you're back into figure 8's though.

If you can try before you buy, it might be worth experimenting with some omnis for guitar. If DPA is in budget, maybe also consider Schoeps and Gefell.

I don't really know what would work best though, just trying to give you some options.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Ty Ford

The louder you sing or play, the more the acoustics of the room become involved.

Good tip Ty!

Not to completely downplay the importance of room acoustics, since they certainly play a vital role in everything from live sound to recording, but there's usually some way to deal with the issue - there's been a lot of music recorded without being in a technically perfect-acoustic studio. I assume that video wasn't a recording studio, Ty?

The mechanics of picking a mic, positioning it, performing, etc are one tool. You can also try different rooms, and even moving around the same room trying different spots may help. And even with bad acoustics, you should be able to get a decent sound.

Just as an extreme example: I just recently did a little recording in the worst acoustics I ever expected to run into - sitting at the gate in the airport terminal of Boston Logan. The recording's not going to make anyone think I'm in a pristine recording studio, but it's not as bad as you would expect! More than good enough for You Tube.

I guess my point is, keep experimenting. Unless you have some really oddball acoustics in your room, a typical furnished living room should actually be pretty good for guitar/voice. You shouldn't need any better gear than what you already have to make a "good enough for You Tube" recording.

[Ty Ford]

Doug, that clip was recorded here in my studio, so, yes there's acoustic treatment involved.

How many mics and where are the remains the question.

Regards,

Ty

[frankhond]

Ok. So in any case, I got a very clear answer to my question. Nobody here recommends the DPA route.

I will spend some time exploring traditional recording technique, check out a few of the mentioned mics. When I got something I'll post it here.

Ty, in fact I'm after a setup that allows me to sing and play pretty softly, I don't have the voice to be a belter and I can do a lot more with it at more intimate levels. Fwiw I just got a Lowden O23 and it really responds to a soft touch, but it is still plenty loud.

[frankhond]

Originally Posted by Ty Ford

Hi Frank,


How many mics in this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFjqiM8sw9s

Where are they?

No idea. The voice seems a lot drier than the flute though. Does the cloth add any damping to speak of?

[Ty Ford]

two, both over the singer/player.

The muslim does knock a bit of sting off.

I added reverb.

Regards,

Ty