What's the deal with K&K pickups (Re: Martin 15M)

[turner28]

Hey folks, I've noticed a lot of buzz about the K&K pickups throughout these forums, particularly when talking about the Martin 15M series...I was hoping owners, players and anyone else who has an opinion could educate me on what makes a K&K such a popular choice, particularly with the all-hog guitars?

Maybe my brain has skewed the popularity of K&Ks, but I recall seeing a few threads recently, and it seems like when 15M owners post asking about pickup options, someone inevitably suggests a K&K.

Just curious really.

Thanks,
Turner

[SimplyLuo]

It's a good value pickup with a nice sound that is more "natural" than most pickups. It's also relatively simple to install and isn't very invasive. The K&K is just three small tabs that you glue to the guitar, so it doesn't have any effect on the unplugged sound of the guitar. Other heavier pickups can dampen the soundboard. The K&K blends well with other pickups for dual-source systems, too.
There are better pickups out there (albeit more expensive), but the K&K has a great track record and reputation and is used by many concert guitarists. The customer service is also very good.
Also, this thread should be in the Amplification section

[Tuffythepug]

over the years I've tried several methods to amplify my acoustic guitars: under-saddle ribbon pickups, soundhole pickups of various types, and the K&K. I have the K&K in an all-mahogany Larrivee 000-50MT and love the natural sound I get from it. But I still use an LR Baggs M-1 passive soundhole pickup in a couple of other guitars as well. I like it the best of this style pickup.

[jseth]

Turner;

I don't know about "all hog" guitars, but the K&K Pure Western Mini is frequently recommended on these pages, for all different types of instruments...

Probably because they are fairly inexpensive, reasonably non-invasive or tone-altering, and they sound good, without a pre-amp... and better with one!

I have a K&K in my Goodall Grand Concert (mahogany w/redwood) and like it; haven't put a lot of time in with it, as of yet, but I was pleased with the tone running straight into the base unit of my Bose L1 Classic, although it wasn't what I'd call stellar... when I ran it through my Bose T1 into the Bose PA, THEN I thought it sounded very good, indeed!

I have the Baggs Anthem SL in both my 6 and 12 string Mark Angus acoustics, and they sound quite nice... but, at over twice the cost of the K&K (and the alteration of the tone of my 6 string, in particular), I can understand why a lot of folks like the K&K unit.

Again, I don't recall anything specifically about the K&K and an all-mahogany guitar...

[Wade Hampton]

Just to add to what everyone else has said, the K&K Pure Mini Western is a simple three transducer pickup - the transducers are these flat little discs that glue onto the bridgeplate inside the guitar. They're light enough that they don't inhibit the bridgeplate, so they don't affect the acoustic tone of the instrument.

My own instruments are pretty evenly divided between LR Baggs pickups and these K&K units. I also have a combination K&K pickup on my baritone guitar which combines the three bridgeplate transducers with an undersaddle transducer. It takes a stereo cord which I run into a K&K blender preamp.

That particular instrument was very hard to get a realistic sound out of until I got the K&K. It was either the fourth or fifth pickup I've had installed in the baritone - I've had so many others in it that I've lost track. But I finally nailed the sound with the K&K.

One of the nice things about the K&K bridgeplate pickup is that it's much hotter than most passive transducers tend to be. You can run it directly into a PA or amp without having to boost the signal with a preamp first.

Anyway, I think you'll find that K&K makes nice gear, as does Baggs. It's hard to go wrong with either brand.

Hope this helps.


Wade Hampton Miller

[Re-Tunes]

For what it's worth, here's my take on K&K pickups (specifically the Pure Western Mini) after hearing the results of many that we have installed in various guitar brands at the shop.

In many guitars they sound very, very good. As someone else mentioned they produce a very natural sound when amplified as opposed to some other types of pickups systems.
However on some guitars the results are not so pleasing ... more of a muddy, dampened and weak sound.

The method used to install the three transducers is exactly the same, so it's not an installation difference. At the risk of offending specific guitar owners, I won't mention any particular brands but I have a theory as to why some guitars sound fantastic with them and why some are not so good.

I think it has to do with the mass of the backing plate to which the transducers are attached. I've noticed that guitars that have rather thin and lightweight (usually maple) backing plates sound the best. Other guitars that have heavier, more massive backing plates tend to produce a weaker "muddy" sound.

When you stop and think about it, the same is true of the natural, un-amplified acoustic sound of a guitar. Lighter is generally better as it takes less energy (string vibration) to be transferred to the top of the guitar. I am in no means a luthier, but I work with a couple of them and we've discussed this often. I think my theory has merit from a technical standpoint.

The disadvantage of the K&K system is that you won't know how it sounds until the transducers have been permanently attached to the backing plate via the preferred method of super gluing them on. They are very difficult to remove without destroying them if you are not satisfied, so, unlike other systems, they usually can't be saved to be installed in another guitar.

We recommend K&K systems for some guitar brands based on our experience of results.
We will not recommend them for some brands that the results have been less satisfying. It's not the pickup system. It's how the guitar is constructed.

[Black Beauty]

The only downside I have read is that they are prone to feedback? Otherwise though it is a less modern sound than the Fishman Infinity Matrix. I have had both on my D-28P, I personally preferred the Fishman but don't mind the K&K. My experience has been that more people complimented me on my guitar sound when I had the Fishman but at the end of the day when performing a song 90% is your songwriting and 10% how your guitar sounds.

[Toby Walker]

Originally Posted by Black Beauty

The only downside I have read is that they are prone to feedback?

I've used them on several of my guitars all of which were plugged in directly to various sound systems and feedback has never been an issue.

[jeepnstein]

Originally Posted by Toby Walker

I've used them on several of my guitars all of which were plugged in directly to various sound systems and feedback has never been an issue.

Play on a really loud stage and get back to me. Mine will feed back pretty bad if it's in the path of the subwoofers. I have zero problems if the stage is properly arranged, which doesn't always happen.

The last new venue I played had a very good sound man. I plugged in and started playing for a sound check. He walked out of the booth and asked to see my guitar. It really puzzled him how I was getting such a natural sound from a pickup.

[CrankyChris]

Pretty much everyone in Nashville uses K&K western mini (or whatever it's called now). It's natural sounding and it usually sounds more like your guitar than any other pickup. I have a k&K trinity w/ the sensors and an internal mic. Sounds pretty good to me

[Health Freak]

Originally Posted by jeepnstein

Play on a really loud stage and get back to me. Mine will feed back pretty bad if it's in the path of the subwoofers. I have zero problems if the stage is properly arranged, which doesn't always happen.

The last new venue I played had a very good sound man. I plugged in and started playing for a sound check. He walked out of the booth and asked to see my guitar. It really puzzled him how I was getting such a natural sound from a pickup.

Most things will feedback if you are in the path of subwoofers. You have to be smart about the stage setup and volume, EQ and phasing.

I have played on a stage that has 3 dual 18" Bagend Subs directly underneath with nor feedback. Not to mention the bass amp, a VOX AC30, and 4-6 floor wedges.

While sometimes the pickup is to blame, it is usually poor implementation of one or more elements in the system as a whole. If the system isn't EQ'd properly, crossover points causing issues, poor position on stage, improper install, etc.

However, if you are expecting a natural sounding pickup to perform flawlessly in a room not designed to handle the music being played, on a system that is either poorly designed or implemented, and have someone mixing that hasn't a clue what they are doing, then there are some unrealistic expectations to be dealt with; just get a mag pickup, deal with the sound and move on.

Not saying any of the about applies to you, just stating from experience the things that usually have more to do with feedback than the pickup itself.

[jonfields45]

K&K Mini: well above average tone compared to all the options, no battery, can be used without a preamp, absolute minimum amount of stuff in your guitar (to come loose, buzz, or rattle as many barn door systems do time to time). I've installed these systems in several guitars for friends and have been happy in every case. If I were to go with a barn door I would want an Aura. For a complex system with lots of wires and other stuff, but an excellent sound, I would go Baggs Anthem. For high volume performance I would buy a heavily built plywood guitar and use whatever system it came with. Highest volume performance is not compatible with any better sounding pick up systems and a lightly built guitar. With a notch filter and equalizer (the Baggs Venue is an excellent choice), I think you can take any of the above choices to reasonably high, and similar, volume levels (in general, if you can avoid floor monitors you can eliminate most of the feedback hassle).

[Joseph Hanna]

These threads often are highly "sounds natural" concentric. Of course that makes some degree of sense since after all we are talking about a musical instrument. The K&K approach reminds me a lot of those who swear they only use a mic and rarely if ever have problems.

The hitch for me in chasing that impossible my guitar only louder scenario is that even if someone came out with some magical box that could do that it then leads to a whole other set of obstacles. I can't record my acoustic (with a mic) in a medium dense mix without aggressively altering the eq of that guitar. The same scenario applies down at "Jimmy's Taco's and Beer Heaven" where the room, the patrons, the ice machine, the pool table, the Harley's outside, the arguments, the microwave and the drunk screaming for a Sugarland song all create a din.

It is in doing that type of room 4 or 5 days a week that I quickly learned the general environment most of us play does NOT allow for a gentle, pristine, natural guitar sound.

Further the rooms are always the polar opposite of what one would want from a sonic perspective. Few if any bar owners would ever put up with us coming early and "ringing" out the room. Usually the first thing I hear from club owners is "you guys can set up over there in the corner behind the pool tables", where of course both walls are covered with mirrors and the kitchen door swings open every 6.2 seconds.

At some point in that journey I resigned to the fact that the instrument itself doesn't live in bar type worlds very well. I guess in some respects that's why the instrument morphed into electric guitars back in the 30's.

The K&K (and I have gigged with it) may indeed be great in quiet, controlled, situations, but exactly like using a mic at some point it becomes unruly and difficult to manage. That not to mention (just like a mic) they are very slow to the touch and managing the touch in a live situation, at least for me, is more important than a natural sound.

It's silly on many levels to suggest what pickup one might want to use in a forum discussion. We're all too different to assume what works for me might work for you. It does however, and at least to me, make sense to discuss some of the obstacles that may, or may not be important to the potential pick-up buyer. Real world, playing live, bar obstacles. For me fast, accurate and loud before feedback trumps just like my guitar only louder every time. Of course someone who has the luxury of gigging in a totally quiet room might have a different set of rules.

Just food for though and YMMV

[Health Freak]

Originally Posted by Joseph Hanna

These threads often are highly "sounds natural" concentric. Of course that makes some degree of sense since after all we are talking about a musical instrument. The K&K approach reminds me a lot of those who swear they only use a mic and rarely if ever have problems.

The hitch for me in chasing that impossible my guitar only louder scenario is that even if someone came out with some magical box that could do that it then leads to a whole other set of obstacles. I can't record my acoustic (with a mic) in a medium dense mix without aggressively altering the eq of that guitar. The same scenario applies down at "Jimmy's Taco's and Beer Heaven" where the room, the patrons, the ice machine, the pool table, the Harley's outside, the arguments, the microwave and the drunk screaming for a Sugarland song all create a din.

It is in doing that type of room 4 or 5 days a week that I quickly learned the general environment most of us play does NOT allow for a gentle, pristine, natural guitar sound.

Further the rooms are always the polar opposite of what one would want from a sonic perspective. Few if any bar owners would ever put up with us coming early and "ringing" out the room. Usually the first thing I hear from club owners is "you guys can set up over there in the corner behind the pool tables", where of course both walls are covered with mirrors and the kitchen door swings open every 6.2 seconds.

At some point in that journey I resigned to the fact that the instrument itself doesn't live in bar type worlds very well. I guess in some respects that's why the instrument morphed into electric guitars back in the 30's.

The K&K (and I have gigged with it) may indeed be great in quiet, controlled, situations, but exactly like using a mic at some point it becomes unruly and difficult to manage. That not to mention (just like a mic) they are very slow to the touch and managing the touch in a live situation, at least for me, is more important than a natural sound.

It's silly on many levels to suggest what pickup one might want to use in a forum discussion. We're all too different to assume what works for me might work for you. It does however, and at least to me, make sense to discuss some of the obstacles that may, or may not be important to the potential pick-up buyer. Real world, playing live, bar obstacles. For me fast, accurate and loud before feedback trumps just like my guitar only louder every time. Of course someone who has the luxury of gigging in a totally quiet room might have a different set of rules.

Just food for though and YMMV

This is the rest of what I wish I posted; some environments are just not conducive to natural plugged-in sound.

Great post.