#91
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
I sit here at my desk and look around me. I see products with all sorts of functions which I use in my daily life. Most (if not all) of these products have been changed and/or improved over time, from their original form at inception. I'm not talking about market-speak "new and improved," I'm talking about innovations and or common-sense changes that impacted these products for the better. I have "championed" some innovative products over the years in the guitar community, sometimes observing great resistance. One example would be Elixir strings. Elixir strings were denigrated by a very vocal majority when they hit the market. It was a change over what people were used to. People hated them. People vilified anyone that supported the product. It was unusable as a guitar string. I have heard it all, over the years. Now Elixirs are considered a popular choice by many, and coated strings are made by a number of manufacturers... ...but our little corner of the world *is* rather resistant to change. Just think what the "traditionalists" would have done on-line if Martin's change-over to adjustable truss-rods would have occurred during our current "internet-forum-era"? Talk about the flame-war to end all flame wars! Now, CA is an interesting case. It *is* an innovative product, by it's very nature. It has been accepted by a certain segment of the guitar-playing community, and rejected by others. I believe that carbon fiber guitars are no better or worse than wood guitars....they simply differ in their tone and construction. There can be benefits and drawbacks to both kinds of guitars. ...but like all these products I see around me, these guitars (CA and others) are simply products. Products that can stand some scrutinizing, and products that may be able to be improved with some change. I refuse to put my head in the sand and agree that there is *no* need to improve the CA product, simply because some are satisfied in its use with its current form. Let me repeat that: I refuse to put my head in the sand and agree that there is *no* need to improve the CA product, simply because some are satisfied in its use with its current form. I will continue to look for and appreciate appropriate and useful innovation within our industry, wherever I can find it. Nothing in life is perfect.
__________________
Larry Pattis on Spotify and Pandora LarryPattis.com American Guitar Masters 100 Greatest Acoustic Guitarists Steel-string guitars by Rebecca Urlacher and Simon Fay Classical guitars by Anders Sterner Last edited by Larry Pattis; 07-23-2010 at 05:31 PM. |
#92
|
|||
|
|||
Improvements, how about a fold down carbon fiber model like the Brunner or Voyage -air
|
#93
|
|||
|
|||
Oh, I don't know - seeing you on our last visit and having a good beer while listening to you play was pretty close to it. Then there was waking up and watching the deer outside the window and smellin' the coffee.
I take you to task, Larry. Some things in life are perfect - they just don't last long enough.
__________________
Go for the Tone, George |
#94
|
|||
|
|||
Perfectly said TG.... guess that makes another one.
__________________
YUP.... Emerald: X-20, Center hole X-10 (Maple) and X-7 (redwood), Spalted Chen Chen X 10 level 3, CA: Early OX and Cargo McPherson: Early Kevin Michael Proto Some wood things by Epi, Harmony, Takamine, Good Time, PRS, Slick, Gypsy Music, keyboards, wind controllers.. etc |
#95
|
|||
|
|||
I agree with Larry on the improvements to the current design. I have read a few comments about how being the current design of the CA guitar brings no thinking or worring about it going out of wack so no need to worry about adjustments. Here is what puzzles me-- HOW and I repeat HOW will installing a truss rod in a CARBON FIBER guitar make it any less reliable????? Basically adjust to YOUR preference and LEAVE IT ALONE FOR LIFE!!!!!! is that NOT what a carbon fiber guitar has for a major advantage. The truss rod will not make the guitar move around or unstable !!!! it WILL however make it so it can be adjusted to preference of the player. The way I see it it would be a WIN WIN situation.
maybe I am missing something here! OH and BTW a truss rod would allow for string type or gauge change and even alternate tuning change. The current design when going from light to medium would ADD relief when that is NOT necessary!!!!! My current 816CE has the lowest action of any Taylor I have owned with 13s and if I had 12s or lighter on it I woulds have to raise the action or add releief to keep the string from buzzing. the larger gauge is stiffer it will not vibrate as much to get same tone.
__________________
2010 Taylor 816CE 2012 PRS P22 Black Gold Wrap Around. |
#96
|
|||
|
|||
Given that the necks are currently engineered to maintain geometry without a truss rod, adding a truss rod would require that they make the neck less stiff so the truss rod could have an effect without excessive force. The good news is that such a modification is easily accomplished if one understands how to critically tune a composite layup. The resultant product should still be just as stable as one could hope for.
__________________
Go for the Tone, George |
#97
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
__________________
2010 Taylor 816CE 2012 PRS P22 Black Gold Wrap Around. |
#98
|
|||
|
|||
I currently have mediums on my Cargo, and I have feeler gauges. I could measure the relief if you'd like....
__________________
gits: good and plenty chops: snickers |
#99
|
|||
|
|||
I tried going from lights to mediums on my GX and it DID add a tad of relief and CA even admitted to that happening but claimed that the added relief is needed for larger gauge strings. not so.
__________________
2010 Taylor 816CE 2012 PRS P22 Black Gold Wrap Around. |
#100
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Would this adversely affect playability in your opinion? It seems fine to me.
__________________
gits: good and plenty chops: snickers |
#101
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
My problem with the GX I had was the neck was so straight that I could NOT get the action any lower with out buzzing the crap out of the strings. I was also NOT willing to go to mediums as it played stiff enough the way it was. My 816CE has WAY lower action with NO buzzing that could NOT be achieved with the GX with out more adjustability of some sort-- ie truss rod! I am a bit more agressive than some and many times will add a tinch of relief over the factory setting to keep from buzzing the strings on the lower fretts. I was having some major hand and finger pain with my GX after playing 45 minutes plus straight in church and now with my Taylor I have NO issues and am even playing with a heavier gauge. the GX could NOT be adjusted to play like my Taylor. That is what I and I believe Larry and others are getting at. Is it close enough or good enough for many-- yes!! is it good enough for all NOPE!!
__________________
2010 Taylor 816CE 2012 PRS P22 Black Gold Wrap Around. |
#102
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Again, from Frets.com; "Here's how I do it. I simply mash the G string down at the first fret and at the body, usually the fourteenth fret.....Then, all I have to do is look at the space between the bottom of that string and the top of the sixth fret." "A medium gauge first string is 0.013 inches which is just about the right amount of relief for a "regular" player. A hard driving bluegrasser is likely to need more relief, maybe as much as the third string itself, or about 0.026 inches. "The point is to determine the right amount of relief by experimentation. That is, play the guitar and adjust the relief until strings have about the same tendency to buzz when fretted at the low positions and high positions. A guitar that buzzes in low positions only may be in need of a neck adjustment for more relief. If it buzzes in high positions, a truss rod adjustment won't help - the action will need to go up at the bridge." http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musi...Adj/tradj.html
__________________
"Use what talents you possess; the woods would be very silent if no birds sang except those that sang best." Henry Van Dyke "It is in the world of slow time that truth and art are found as one" Norman Maclean, |
#103
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
It's so important to have friends, yes? I can take no credit for the deer or beer, but I *am* responsible for bean-roasting, grinding and brewing...and music, from time to time. For all the Cargo lovers out there...keep lovin' 'em. Maybe they'll be "new and improved" in a while! Here's my non-flaw "desire" (personal preference) for Peavey on this front; make the gol-darned necks thicker! P.S. CA has admitted (posted elsewhere in this thread) that the relief changes with different gauge strings. We all should know exactly what this means. Things will shift and/or flex. We currently have no control over this....but maybe this, and neck-angle issues will be corrected with new and more guitar-knowledgeable owners...oh, be still my beating heart... P.S.S. If anyone from Peavey is reading this, I'm available as an industry-consultant on this whole issue...and more. I have experience, credentials and references.
__________________
Larry Pattis on Spotify and Pandora LarryPattis.com American Guitar Masters 100 Greatest Acoustic Guitarists Steel-string guitars by Rebecca Urlacher and Simon Fay Classical guitars by Anders Sterner |
#104
|
|||
|
|||
Understood, but yes, it works for me. I can't induce buzzing unless I pluck vertically with some force. Rules of thumb are fine, but ultimately it's playability and tone that matter.
I understand wanting adjustability, but to characterize the fixed geometry as "flawed" is akin to saying every pre-1985 Martin is flawed. If it doesn't work for you, move on. There are lots of guitars out there, and carbon fiber may not have the kind of adjustability some people want. But who knows, maybe the guys at Peavey have something up their sleeve that will appease everybody.
__________________
gits: good and plenty chops: snickers |
#105
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Huh? What? Martins of that era (as new) likely had much better quality-control when it came to neck angle (fixed geometry), which was fitted by hand with the dovetail joint in much lower quantities than today's production numbers. The neck-angle of a guitar is a completely different issue from the adjustable/non-adjustable truss rod thing. A neck angle can be perfect, and the relief of a neck can be quite bad. Martin "gave in" on the truss-rod issue. They changed their minds about their building practices. You can only imagine what the pressures were, with every other guitar builder having adjustable truss-rods, and Martin, the Cadillac of guitar builders (at the time) did indeed have warranty-repair issues with their fixed system in regards to relief adjustment. Why do you think they changed? Quote:
You post is akin to saying "shut up and be happy with something else." I don't buy into this. At all. Not for one second... ...especially if it's something I am knowledgeable about. You might be surprised to know what companies look in on the forums from time to time, especially when their products are being mentioned. The old CA product doesn't have the adjustability (and neck geometry) that some people want because the company decided to do things a certain way. Products change, thinking can change, companies can (and do) change. There are millions of examples of product-improvement that could be cited. Some people didn't want or like color tv when it first became available. Want more? Okay, back on-topic: P.S. The "corrections" for a pre-adjustable truss rod Martin that had too much relief included re-fretting with frets that a wider tang, in an attempt to have the fret-tangs force the neck relief back into a more playable position. Slightly more difficult and expensive than a truss-rod adjustment. Another "fix" would be to remove all the frets and re-plane the neck...and then re-fret. Also slightly more difficult and expensive than a truss-rod adjustment. Living with or avoiding a problem (by buying a different guitar) isn't the solution to the neck-angle nor the no-adjustable truss rod flaws.
__________________
Larry Pattis on Spotify and Pandora LarryPattis.com American Guitar Masters 100 Greatest Acoustic Guitarists Steel-string guitars by Rebecca Urlacher and Simon Fay Classical guitars by Anders Sterner Last edited by Larry Pattis; 07-23-2010 at 06:13 PM. |