Alternate Tuning Question of the Day - Thursday edition

I spent yesterday practicing everything tuned down a full step, un-capo'd and also capo'd at various positions of the neck, comparing the sound for ease of singing along. It was so much fun, now both of my guitars are tuned down a full step!

As I was practicing, tuned down a full step, capo'd at 2, etc., it occurred to me that I had unintentionally created a 12 fret guitar for myself.

So, question of the day, and I may already know the answer, but...

If I were playing a 12 fret guitar in standard tuning would it sound the same as a 14 fret guitar, tuned down a full step, capo'd at 2, to bring it back up to an "E to E" tuning?

12 fret in standard no capo vs
14 fret in D to D, with a capo on 2

I think not, because the thing that is still different between the two is the string tension.

A 12 fret guitar in standard tuning should sound the same as a 14 fret guitar in standard tuning because the strings would be under the same tension. If I tuned down a 12 fret guitar to D to D, then capo'd at two, it would have the same effect as doing that on a 14 fret.

Yes? No? Partial credit?

Thanks!

[cliff_the_stiff]

maybe without the benefit of the reduced string tension. Your 14 fret guitars scale will be 2 inches longer, and then the capo’s pressure will also increase the tension a little.
For years I preferred learning songs with the capo on 2, I just could play shapes more clearly. I later discovered the reason I liked it was because the fretboard at the second fret is a little wider than it is at 0, so I think if you measure the fretboard at 2, look for a 12 fret with that nut width and then you can have the lower tension associated with playing without the capo- wider spacing of a capo on 2 and the lower end resonance of the bridge being more centrally placed in the lower bout.

[egordon99]

Originally Posted by janinep7

If I were playing a 12 fret guitar in standard tuning would it sound the same as a 14 fret guitar, tuned down a full step, capo'd at 2, to bring it back up to an "E to E" tuning?

They would sound different (albeit the same notes) because they are different guitars.

</thread>

[Bob from Brooklyn]

Originally Posted by egordon99

They would sound different (albeit the same notes) because they are different guitars.

This guy stole my response.

Obviously, different sounds from different guitars... perhaps the word "equivalent" would have been better? Do I need to buy a 12 fretter now so I can introduce another variable into my sonic experiments? (Answer: Of course!)

And then if you tune a 12 fretter down a full step and capo it at 2, you get a 10 fret guitar.

I see where this is going!

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by janinep7

If I were playing a 12 fret guitar in standard tuning would it sound the same as a 14 fret guitar, tuned down a full step, capo'd at 2, to bring it back up to an "E to E" tuning?

Essentially, yes. It's the feel that would be different. The sound would be near enough the same, just maybe a little less volume due to the reduced tension (and more risk of pushing the strings out of tune when fretting them).

The other effect on feel is the closer fret spacing.

IOW, if you had very small fingers, so that stretching was a common problem between frets 0-2, then you could solve that problem (or at least reduce it a little) by this method. And you could fit heavier strings to bring the tension back to normal (if the looseness was a problem, e.g. for fret buzz or intonation). All you would sacrifice would be those two frets up at the body joint. And of course, all your fret markers would be in different places, so negotiating the fretboard might take a little getting used to...

But then, of course, you gain the two extra frets when you take the capo off!

I.e., it's definitely worth taking standard tuning as merely that: "standard". Normal, run-of-the-mill, one-size-fits all... Experiment with all kinds of alternative tunings (not just standard down or up), as well as strings guages and so on, to make the instrument suit you as much as possible. Customize it! (Tailor your Taylor... ) You have nothing to lose - except a close connection with other guitarists! If you are always going to be a solo performer, that's of little or no account.

[OVG]

You would find differences in the tone and the feel, and I definitely encourage you to try out 12 fret acoustic guitars. In the vintage world, the Gibson HG-00 and Roy Smeck models were designed as Hawaiian guitars and the necks are quite massive and the nut is wider. They are steel string guitars and many have been converted from Hawaiian to Spanish setups.

Many other vintage 12 fret models are not true steel string guitars, only a limited number of Martins would match that description.

[davidbeinct]

Q: Do I need to buy a new (insert guitar type or model here)?
Official AGF Answer: Yes you do.

[b1j]

Here I go again.

Doesn’t a 12-fret guitar just have the bridge two frets farther down the lower bout? If all else is equal other than the number of frets to the body, it’s the same scale length (nut to saddle), right?

[Andyrondack]

Originally Posted by b1j

Here I go again.

Doesn’t a 12-fret guitar just have the bridge two frets farther down the lower bout? If all else is equal other than the number of frets to the body, it’s the same scale length (nut to saddle), right?

Yes that's correct , some 12 fret guitars are short scale just as some 14 fret guitars are also short scale but for some reason 12 fret and short scale have got equated in some peoples minds.

[cdkrugjr]

Every 12-fretted I’ve ever seen, the shift moves the bridge closer to the center of the lower bout.

I suspect that has more to do with the sound change than does the scale, but the build of the guitar will have even more of a change.

If you enjoy it, do it. I’m VERY fond of playing “in D” at capo 2.

Originally Posted by davidbeinct

Q: Do I need to buy a new (insert guitar type or model here)?
Official AGF Answer: Yes you do.

Do I need to buy... it's always a rhetorical question around here. "Need?" probably not. "Want?" Absolutely!

Originally Posted by cdkrugjr

Every 12-fretted I’ve ever seen, the shift moves the bridge closer to the center of the lower bout.

I suspect that has more to do with the sound change than does the scale, but the build of the guitar will have even more of a change.

If you enjoy it, do it. I’m VERY fond of playing “in D” at capo 2.

This is such a good combination for my voice, tuning down a full step, and then using the capo at 1, 2, 3 or even higher to find the right key. I cannot believe all the new stuff this very small change is unlocking for me. I still don't sing great, but at least my voice isn't clashing with the guitar. OMG, me singing w/ a guitar in standard tuning is like wearing plaid pants and a striped shirt. They just do not go together! But luckily there are many many different ways to tune a guitar. It's really amazing. You can make fine adjustments to dial it in.

Originally Posted by JonPR

Essentially, yes. It's the feel that would be different. The sound would be near enough the same, just maybe a little less volume due to the reduced tension (and more risk of pushing the strings out of tune when fretting them).

The other effect on feel is the closer fret spacing.

IOW, if you had very small fingers, so that stretching was a common problem between frets 0-2, then you could solve that problem (or at least reduce it a little) by this method. And you could fit heavier strings to bring the tension back to normal (if the looseness was a problem, e.g. for fret buzz or intonation). All you would sacrifice would be those two frets up at the body joint. And of course, all your fret markers would be in different places, so negotiating the fretboard might take a little getting used to...

But then, of course, you gain the two extra frets when you take the capo off!

I.e., it's definitely worth taking standard tuning as merely that: "standard". Normal, run-of-the-mill, one-size-fits all... Experiment with all kinds of alternative tunings (not just standard down or up), as well as strings guages and so on, to make the instrument suit you as much as possible. Customize it! (Tailor your Taylor... ) You have nothing to lose - except a close connection with other guitarists! If you are always going to be a solo performer, that's of little or no account.

Thank you for the informative reply. More stuff to experiment with!

[peetar]

Originally Posted by b1j

Here I go again.

Doesn’t a 12-fret guitar just have the bridge two frets farther down the lower bout? If all else is equal other than the number of frets to the body, it’s the same scale length (nut to saddle), right?

My understanding yes. Shifting the bridge back changes bracing ect. Pretty sure the guys that are into the 12 fretters are sacrificing the two frets of access for the tone they get by having the bridge deeper in the lower bout. It's a tone thing rather than an exposed fret thing.