13 or 14 frets on a custom build?

[jklotz]

I've got a guitar in the works and the builder posed a 13 fret guitar. He will build whatever I want, but he says he's had really good results with the 13 frets to the body design. I'm a little hesitant as I tend to capo up a lot and a 12 fret Taylor I once had did not work for me. It was too cramped up top and seemed to lack those piano like lows I love so much. It was a little muddy in the mids to my ears also. I have not, however, ever had the opportunity to play a 13 fret guitar.

Have you guys had any experience with 13 fretters? What's your take on it?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by jklotz

I've got a guitar in the works and the builder posed a 13 fret guitar. He will build whatever I want, but he says he's had really good results with the 13 frets to the body design. I'm a little hesitant as I tend to capo up a lot and a 12 fret Taylor I once had did not work for me. It was too cramped up top and seemed to lack those piano like lows I love so much. It was a little muddy in the mids to my ears also. I have not, however, ever had the opportunity to play a 13 fret guitar.

Have you guys had any experience with 13 fretters? What's your take on it?

Will you have a cutaway? I have a 13 fret, and barely notice the difference in access to upper frets between it and a 14 fretter when playing it. A 12 fret, especially with no cutaway, I certainly notice the lack of access.

My impression of 12 fretters is a bit different than what you're reporting - 12 fretters usually end up with the bridge placed in a way that produces a more responsive, warmer guitar (I guess this could be what you call "muddy"). Unless it was also shorter scale, I'm not sure why lows would be lacking. In any case, based just on my limited experience with 13 fretters, they seem to split the difference between the sound of a 14 and a 12 as far as the contribution of the bridge. My 13 fretter is one of my favorite, and best-recording guitars.

PS. Just noticed in another thread a description that the diff between a 14 and a 12 is like hitting a drum toward the rim vs in the center. That seems like a good description. So a 13 fret would be like hitting in between the two extremes. I noticed this when I got my 13 fret, a Claxton Malabar. Ed had a nearly identical 12 fret in the shop at the same time. I liked the sound of the 12 fret a tad better - it had that "hitting in the middle of a drum" sound :-) But the 13 fret was close, with a little more punch and tightness, and especially with the cutaway, was far more playable for me.

[Gordon Currie]

I've played two 13 fret guitars, not a big sample. They were custom as you would imagine.

My only issue was ergonomic. I have played only 14 fret guitars all my life, I have decades of muscle memory built up, and I often play in the 12th - 17th fret area.

I found myself having to adjust constantly whenever crossing the 12th fret area.

If you aren't sensitive to this, then a 13 fret could work fine, and give you a little more of the alleged '12 fret' tone.

[Rudy4]

The tone as well as the feel of 12, 13, and 14 fret guitars has a lot to do with the rest of the design, not simply about where the neck joins the body.

Scale length, upper bout length, X brace angle and placement, bridge position, and body depth all make a difference.

I prefer to play mostly on whatever my current "favorite" guitar is, and have settled on 14 frets because I often capo at the 7th and sometimes at the 9th. The 14 fret lets me have enough real estate that I can pull off playing comfortably.

There are quite a few examples of 13 fret guitars that aren't custom. The Gibson (1929 and 1930?) Nick Lucas Specials and Santa Cruz H13 are two examples that aren't particularly rare.

[Guitars44me]

Rudy 4:

"The tone as well as the feel of 12, 13, and 14 fret guitars has a lot to do with the rest of the design, not simply about where the neck joins the body.

Scale length, upper bout length, X brace angle and placement, bridge position, and body depth all make a difference."

I would add, woods used, size of box, brace woods and glue, string gauge and type, where and how you pick on the Fretboard, (fingers? Thumbpick? Fingerpicks? Flatpick? And what types of those, too, and most importantly, your builder!

It appears you are getting an Edwinson talk to Steve and let him know what floats your boat and how YOU play.

For me, I doubt I will ever buy another 14 fret. 12 frets with a cutaway, low heel, short scale, and big body with bevels, Wedge and soundport works for what I do.

YMMV. Hahahaha

Talk to Steve! He is a great builder and a super nice guy. Tell him about your disappointment with the Taylor and what model it was. And what YOU hope to achieve. The more you communicate the better your chances of a guitar that rocks your world.

Salud

Paul

[The Bard Rocks]

I have 2 13 fretters and think it occupies something of a "sweet spot", with a big chunk of the 12 fret's sound but greater playability. However, if you play capoed up a lot, you may miss the extra fret. in that case, I'd go with 14. I play up the next some but rarely use a capo, so it works for me.

[jklotz]

Thank you guys so much, this is all valuable input. Much appreciated.

[colins]

I have 13 fret joins on two guitars, both 00s, and 14 fret joins on my other, larger guitars. From a playing perspective I can’t tell them apart. I see you already have a cutaway on your OM (yep, I’ve been following the build thread!) so hopefully the issues of upper fret access are covered and you can chose 13 or 14 frets from a tonal perspective.

Picking up on Doug’s post, my suggestion is you ask Steve what impact the neck join position will have on the overall tone, recognising that it influences where the bridge sits on the lower bout.

[RRuskin]

A 13 fretter coupled with a deep OO/L/H body is my favorite configuration. It's both comfortable and responsive.

[tdq]

My two main guitars are 12 fretters - I definitely prefer them for sound and comfort but occasionally I miss the access to upper frets, but not that much tbh, and only when I capo up (especially when playing slide). If I had a choice in a build I'd seriously consider a 13 fretter. I did play a 13 fret carbon fiber Blackbird Lucky 13 for a about a week, I found it very comfortable to play.
I'm also very intrigued with the Santa Cruz H13 but I've never had a chance to play one. What's the body size of your build?

[jklotz]

Originally Posted by tdq

My two main guitars are 12 fretters - I definitely prefer them for sound and comfort but occasionally I miss the access to upper frets, but not that much tbh, and only when I capo up (especially when playing slide). If I had a choice in a build I'd seriously consider a 13 fretter. I did play a 13 fret carbon fiber Blackbird Lucky 13 for a about a week, I found it very comfortable to play.
I'm also very intrigued with the Santa Cruz H13 but I've never had a chance to play one. What's the body size of your build?

It's an OM/OOO body size. Specs are:

Eclipse OM
Sinker red cedar over old growth EIR
Florentine cutaway
Ebony fretboard and bridge
Bone nut and saddle
Scale 25"
Custom neck carve
1 3/4" nut
2 1/4" spacing
Jescar-FW43080 fret wire
Light weight
sound ports
arm bevel

[justonwo]

I don’t notice a big difference when I owned a 13 fret non-cutaway, but I also don’t capo that high on the neck and don’t spend much time above the 12th.

I think with a cutaway, you are pretty safe opting for a 13 fret design.

[El Conquistador]

I have 3 13 fret luthier built guitars and am in the middle of my 4th build.

IMHO, 13 frets is the perfect design for all the reasons stated above. And I do capo as high as the 5th fret frequently.

Steve

[ChuckS]

I have a 13 fretter. But as others have already said, it's not just the neck join. Mine is a 12 fret 00 body (elongated body compared to a 14 fret body), 4 1/8" body depth, and it has a long scale. No cutaway, but I don't use this guitar for playing chords way up the neck, just some partial chord shapes or single notes that aren't a problem to reach.

[theEdwinson]

James and I had a good conversation yesterday, discussing in detail the specs and playing character of the guitar we just started. I advocated a 13-frets-to-body design, because for at least fifteen years now, the thirteen fret design has been the default on all the guitar models I build, EVEN nylon string Crossovers. It's one of those things where, as a builder, I tried a few of this configuration, and liked the results so much that I never went back to a standard 12- or 14-fret design, except once or twice at clients' request.

And a large number of my clients decided to give the 13-fretter a try, and as far as I know, none of them ever went back to the traditional defaults because they were dissatisfied in any way with the 13-fretter. Every single one of them is unequivocally happy with the thirteen fretter!

It's interesting, reading the commentary so far on this thread, indicating that the thirteen-fret neck has become pretty much the modern standard among a large and growing number of custom shop builders and their clients. I remember when I first opted to build a thirteen-fretter, some of my other luthier friends wagged their fingers at me and said, "BAD LUCK!" or, "That's just weird- it'll never sell!" Ha ha, well, I did it anyway, and now I seem to be running with a large herd of fellow thirteen-fretters. I think that is simply because this design really does perform well, with little to no perceivable compromise. ESPECIALLY on a cutaway guitar.

I am building an Eclipse OM Florentine for James, which has a deep cutaway and a modern shape, inspired by the OM guitars built by Joel Michaud and Simon Fay, who are famous for their extraordinary instruments. My Eclipse would certainly be amenable to having a 14-frets-to-body configuration. I do not think there is any reason that wouldn't work, because the entire guitar, and especially the top bracing and bridge position would be modified to accommodate that slight northward shift. So guitar performance isn't so much of an issue as the ergonomics and practicality of playing all the way up the neck would be.

If James opts for a 14-fretter instead of a thirteen, this will be the first one of those for the Eclipse OM model. I think the best advice I gave James yesterday was, after all the practical matters are considered, don't let my personal bias toward the thirteen-fretter sway you too much. It's going to be a great guitar, either way. Maybe not exactly the same, but...

That said, I am going to draw out a 100% scale blueprint of the Eclipse as a fourteen-fretter. It's best to see a full-scale representation first, so I can see exactly where the bracing, bridge, and sound hole will be.

This is a good conversation to have. Thanks, for getting it started, James.