Talk me out of adding a second output jack to J160E; suggest me a pickup

[jimmy bookout]

Originally Posted by jricc

I'm definitely in the minority of those here who like the Element, but I find it provides a consistent, useable sound for my live work. Is it a perfect acoustic tone, no... but stick a decent eq in front of it and it just works. Lots of volume before feedback make it good for a loud band too.

My reality (and crushed checking account) is that "perfect acoustic tone" does not exist when using ANY pickup. Want "perfect acoustic tone"? Buy a great microphone and stick it in front of your guitar...and hire a sound guy.

With that reality, I am much poorer but have arrived at a sound that I'm very happy with on all of my guitars and am pleased to report that I have NOT bought a pickup or preamp in some years!!!

[PRW94]

Revisiting this thread of mine, I had decided to go with a Duncan Duo Wavelength, I haven’t had it done yet because of some medical issues that laid me up for a while (better now).

The main reason I am revisiting is that I found an old listing for a J-160E like mine, the one that is a decent solid-wood acoustic, on Reverb where the owner had installed a Baggs Anthem in it … he made it work with apparently no trouble and that’s tempting to try but that’s a lot of stuff shoved in a guitar.

Here’s the thing, though. Remember this guitar has Gibson volume and tone pots on the top, just like an electric guitar. This guy had changed the tone pot to a push-pull pot that when it was pushed, the mag pickup was enabled and the Anthem was killed, and when it was pulled the mag pickup was killed and the Anthem was enabled.

Apparently there was no need for any kind of stereo cord or splitter. You pushed to play I Feel Fine, you pulled to play acoustic.

Anyone out there have instructions, a schematic, a clue how to do that? That sounds like the no-brainer of no-brainers in my situation.

[LFL Steve]

Originally Posted by PRW94

Revisiting this thread of mine, I had decided to go with a Duncan Duo Wavelength, I haven’t had it done yet because of some medical issues that laid me up for a while (better now).

The main reason I am revisiting is that I found an old listing for a J-160E like mine, the one that is a decent solid-wood acoustic, on Reverb where the owner had installed a Baggs Anthem in it … he made it work with apparently no trouble and that’s tempting to try but that’s a lot of stuff shoved in a guitar.

Here’s the thing, though. Remember this guitar has Gibson volume and tone pots on the top, just like an electric guitar. This guy had changed the tone pot to a push-pull pot that when it was pushed, the mag pickup was enabled and the Anthem was killed, and when it was pulled the mag pickup was killed and the Anthem was enabled.

Apparently there was no need for any kind of stereo cord or splitter. You pushed to play I Feel Fine, you pulled to play acoustic.

Anyone out there have instructions, a schematic, a clue how to do that? That sounds like the no-brainer of no-brainers in my situation.

Yes.
This instruction will make sense to your tech.
You need a switch in the SPDT flavor. A DPDT switch will also be perfectly fine; just ignore the other channel. A SPST switch will not work in this application, nor will a DPST. Wire all the ground lines together but not to the switch. Cut the wire carrying the signal from the existing pickup to the volume/tone part of the circuit, and strip both ends of the cut. Solder the pickup lead of that cut wire to one of the outboard lugs of the switch, and the tone circuit lead of that wire to the center lug. Solder the signal from the new pickup to the other outboard lug. That’s all there is to it. The guitar will now function just as you described, and the volume and tone controls will work normally with either pickup. I could email you a schematic if you like.

[Larrison]

Originally Posted by PRW94

Revisiting this thread of mine, I had decided to go with a Duncan Duo Wavelength, I haven’t had it done yet because of some medical issues that laid me up for a while (better now).



The main reason I am revisiting is that I found an old listing for a J-160E like mine, the one that is a decent solid-wood acoustic, on Reverb where the owner had installed a Baggs Anthem in it … he made it work with apparently no trouble and that’s tempting to try but that’s a lot of stuff shoved in a guitar.



Here’s the thing, though. Remember this guitar has Gibson volume and tone pots on the top, just like an electric guitar. This guy had changed the tone pot to a push-pull pot that when it was pushed, the mag pickup was enabled and the Anthem was killed, and when it was pulled the mag pickup was killed and the Anthem was enabled.



Apparently there was no need for any kind of stereo cord or splitter. You pushed to play I Feel Fine, you pulled to play acoustic.



Anyone out there have instructions, a schematic, a clue how to do that? That sounds like the no-brainer of no-brainers in my situation.

I don’t have much to add now- but that push/pull arrangement sounds really cool. I hope that works out for you! Let us know how it goes.

[Rudy4]

Re: Simply adding a second output jack

Nothing particularly wrong with adding a second jack, although here at AGF we like to come up with the most complicated and Rube Goldberg-ish solutions to simple problems.

John Leventhal shows his two jack solution for live sound for his acoustic guitars during his recent Truetone Lounge interview, around 51 minutes in:

[PRW94]

Originally Posted by LFL Steve

Yes.
This instruction will make sense to your tech.
You need a switch in the SPDT flavor. A DPDT switch will also be perfectly fine; just ignore the other channel. A SPST switch will not work in this application, nor will a DPST. Wire all the ground lines together but not to the switch. Cut the wire carrying the signal from the existing pickup to the volume/tone part of the circuit, and strip both ends of the cut. Solder the pickup lead of that cut wire to one of the outboard lugs of the switch, and the tone circuit lead of that wire to the center lug. Solder the signal from the new pickup to the other outboard lug. That’s all there is to it. The guitar will now function just as you described, and the volume and tone controls will work normally with either pickup. I could email you a schematic if you like.

Will PM you with address and ten jillion thank yous. I am assuming both pickups to a TRS jack, probably of the acoustic pickup?

[PRW94]

I have pestered y’all multiple times about this guitar and a random Google search turned up a simple, not very complicated sounding answer that was there all along for this particular situation. LOL. Only holdup now is I have started wondering about shooting the works and going Anthem. It will be a lot shoved in the box but again this is a guitar for punchy aggressive rhythm playing, it’s not a delicate sounding guitar unplugged even with the solid woods. It’s not just a J45 with a mag pickup, neck is 15 frets so soundhole and bridge are in different spots plus it has the pots in the top,

[James May]

As a result of PRW94 starting this thread, I got the itch for one of these J160E made in the early 90s with solid wood, and X-bracing. Found a good one in Japan and it is now my main gigging guitar. It suits me well since I switch hit between an electric sound with various effects from a signal chain fed by the P90/P100 and acoustic sound fed by the Ultra Tonic through ToneDexter II.

My particular guitar, unusually, has an end pin jack and NOT the more typical jack on the bottom of the lower bout. Which is a plus, since it made installing the Ultra Tonic a bit easier, but it was not an easy install. I'll explain.

The 15th fret joint design jams the bridge plate further into the X-brace, make it very cramped there. To get the Ultra Tonic to have even string balance, I had 4 12mm sensors inside, and 2 more on the outside of the braces to get the E strings loud enough. Sounds great now, and three would have sufficed on the inside, but it was a bit of do.

As PRW94 mentioned earlier, this guitar has a certain sound this is unusual for a slope shoulder guitar. Because the neck joins the body at the 15th fret, the bridge has moved up closer to the soundhole, taking it further from the center of the lower bout which is the most resonant spot it could be. The is the opposite of what a 12th fret guitar does. The resonance peaks are noticeably reduced. In a way, it's a good thing for amplifying it with a pickup. Acoustically, it is not as bass heavy, but still has the characteristic Gibson sound that my AJ has.

Two other major benefits for me is that the 15th fret joint allows me to play up to the high G and makes a lot of lead lines much more accessible. And, the shorter 24.75" scale makes it a lot easier to bend notes than on my 25.4" scale AJ.

One thing I didn't like is the P100 pickup. It was Gibson's (short-lived) attempt at a noise cancelling P90. The sound is okay but this one is very noisy. I've ordered a Fralin noise cancelling P90 to replace it, and I know that pickup sounds great.

Probably more than you care to know, but I thought I'd share my experience.

[PRW94]

Originally Posted by James May

As a result of PRW94 starting this thread, I got the itch for one of these J160E made in the early 90s with solid wood, and X-bracing. Found a good one in Japan and it is now my main gigging guitar. It suits me well since I switch hit between an electric sound with various effects from a signal chain fed by the P90/P100 and acoustic sound fed by the Ultra Tonic through ToneDexter II.

My particular guitar, unusually, has an end pin jack and NOT the more typical jack on the bottom of the lower bout. Which is a plus, since it made installing the Ultra Tonic a bit easier, but it was not an easy install. I'll explain.

The 15th fret joint design jams the bridge plate further into the X-brace, make it very cramped there. To get the Ultra Tonic to have even string balance, I had 4 12mm sensors inside, and 2 more on the outside of the braces to get the E strings loud enough. Sounds great now, and three would have sufficed on the inside, but it was a bit of do.

As PRW94 mentioned earlier, this guitar has a certain sound this is unusual for a slope shoulder guitar. Because the neck joins the body at the 15th fret, the bridge has moved up closer to the soundhole, taking it further from the center of the lower bout which is the most resonant spot it could be. The is the opposite of what a 12th fret guitar does. The resonance peaks are noticeably reduced. In a way, it's a good thing for amplifying it with a pickup. Acoustically, it is not as bass heavy, but still has the characteristic Gibson sound that my AJ has.

Two other major benefits for me is that the 15th fret joint allows me to play up to the high G and makes a lot of lead lines much more accessible. And, the shorter 24.75" scale makes it a lot easier to bend notes than on my 25.4" scale AJ.

One thing I didn't like is the P100 pickup. It was Gibson's (short-lived) attempt at a noise cancelling P90. The sound is okay but this one is very noisy. I've ordered a Fralin noise cancelling P90 to replace it, and I know that pickup sounds great.

Probably more than you care to know, but I thought I'd share my experience.

Great!!! It’s a unique instrument, ain’t it? And which Fralin P-90 did you get? Mine has the endpin jack too.

[James May]

Originally Posted by PRW94

Great!!! It’s a unique instrument, ain’t it? And which Fralin P-90 did you get? Mine has the endpin jack too.

The Fralin noise-cancelling P90. I have one on my AJ and it sounds great.

[Adrianw]

Adding a second jack is fine. I have two guitars I've setup this way, each has an active Baggs Element and a passive K&K. I usually use the KK but in some venues it's just easier to use the baggs. No special cable needed and you can still use it as dual source with a simple Y cable if you want. If you decide later to use a single output just add an endpin plug to the extra hole as a strap button. I think a number of people tend to overthink this kind of stuff....

[guitaniac]

The only downside of adding the second jack is that it might reduce resale value of the guitar. Even if it doesn’t harm resale value, it’s unlikely that you’d find a buyer who would perceive the added pickup as justifying any increase in the typical resale price.

An example of an extreme modification would be the guitar which I had fitted with a Baggs Lyric system on the main jack and a Baggs LB6 in-saddle pickup on the second jack. If I were to sell that guitar it’s unlikely that I’d get as much as the same guitar with the original Fishman Sonicore “barndoor” system. I could always replace the Fishman system and salvage the Lyric system, but the LB6 would be a total loss. (The LB6 is hand intonated for that specific guitar.)


If the J160E were my guitar (and I was sure it’s a keeper), I’d add something like an Anthem SL system or HiFi Duet system on a second jack. I currently have a guitar with an Anthem SL system on the main jack and a passive Fishman NeoD soundhole pickup on the second jack. The NeoD is only needed for situations where industrial strength feedback rejection is required (as when picking with bare fingerpads in a very noisy room).

[LFL Steve]

Originally Posted by PRW94

Will PM you with address and ten jillion thank yous. I am assuming both pickups to a TRS jack, probably of the acoustic pickup?

Sorry, I didn't notice this question earlier.
No, you don't need to change to a TRS jack. Leave everything the same. Normal (mono) jack, normal cord, normal everything. Just splice in the switch per the drawing in my email and use the switch to select which pickup is connected to the circuit. It functions like the selector switch in a 2-pickup electric guitar, except there is no middle (both) position; it's one pickup or the other.

There is a way to do this without the switch, using one of the pots for a pickup blend control, but unless the two pickups have similar impedence you might get some loading in the in-between settings. But it would eliminate the switch because you'd use the pot as a switch, just turn all the way clockwise or counterclockwise to select the pickup.

[conecaster]

Originally Posted by PRW94

I have posted a couple of times over the years seeking input on how to add an acoustic pickup to my Gibson J-160E ... it's the solid top one that came out in the early 1990s, with a P-100 pickup and the standard, non-adjustable bridge; in other words it's a great acoustic guitar ... without disconnecting the magnetic pickup and having it all go into one jack.

The consensus was to wire the P-100 output to ring of the acoustic pickup TRS jack, and then have a stereo cord running from the guitar to a dual-channel preamp and then to an amp or board.

I have decided after years of dithering about this that unless someone can give me a good reason otherwise, I'm going to have a second jack placed in the end block for the acoustic pickup.

For my purposes I simply don't want to fool with the complexity of that setup, when I'm probably going to be using the acoustic pickup 99.9% of the time. I am not a professional, I play in my bedroom for fun and I play in the praise band at church to make a joyful noise, and that ain't likely to change as I approach my 70s.

It was suggested to me on another forum that the simplest thing to do would be just disconnect the P-100 and leave it as decorative, and simply treat the guitar as the fine acoustic that it is, but call it one last vestige of John Lennon cosplay to want to keep it in case I ever want to plug it in for cacas and giggles and play I Feel Fine or This Boy. In which case I would simply go from that jack to the Beatles Vox AC-30 preset on my POD Go.

I have talked to my tech who says doing it would be no issue whatsoever, although I am thinking about asking him to move the Gibson jack to the secondary position and put the acoustic pickup jack in the primary, strap button position.

I doubt it's going to affect the resale value of the guitar should I want to sell it, which is unlikely, because I often see J-160E's with this modification on Reverb that sell, plus mine's not hugely desirable anyway because it isn't Beatle spec and actually is black rather than sunburst.

That being said, I basically strum and arpeggiate rhythm guitar. My inclination is that a soundhole pickup would probably be best for my purposes, but I fear that might be a snug fit or look kind of funky next to the P-100 if I leave it intact, although it really stops above the actual soundhole. I don't know, it could be a possibility. (I honestly for my purposes wouldn't have an issue with keeping a soundhole pickup removable and running the cord out of the soundhole and not to another jack.)

But what UST or SBD pickups might work better for my purposes, given what I've described about what I'll be doing with the guitar? In church I probably will be going from the guitar to a DI box to the board, I don't have a mint to spend or the inclination or need to get an elaborate, expensive preamp, although I'm not opposed to getting something to help color the sound a little.

People express what they know on this subject.

That is fair

I have given over 10 years of my life to amplified sound.

Between concepts and my partner who is an audio electrician like no other I have ever encountered, we have a system that does much more than the standard concepts offered.

I would be happy to serve your needs with Go Acoustic Audio

Goacousticaudio.com