What don't you like about Taylor's ES2?
 

After doing a setup on my late 2018 324ce, I visited a local shop to activate the pickup. (backed off the sensors to take saddle out) Got a fresh battery, but don't remember the exact fishman amp played thru.

The ES2 sounded very natural and dynamic, and the tone controls were also satisfactory. Less crunchy sounding than some piezos I've heard.

So, I hear some hate it. That leaves me wondering if it's an issue with earlier variants, and how much better a pickup can get. To me, it was fairly transparent.

I like the ES2 a lot. For its relative simplicity and as a single source system I find it very natural easy to work with, both as a guitarist and as a sound engineer. These days I plug it in to TC BodyRez and Tonebone Pz-Pre but I am happy to plug direct (via direct box) if necessary. I think it sounds pretty good recorded as well.

I don’t understand the negative opinions either if I’m honest though I have discovered that the sensors need tweaking every now and then to keep the tonal balance. It’s easily done and not a problem for me to sort it when needed.

Previous to that the same guitar had the ES1.3 which was an improvement over the ES1.1 but still too “magnetic” for my liking.

I like the ES2!

The ES2 is unlike any other piezo I know and I'm very happy with the ES2 in my guitar. One issue of the ES2 is that a lot of people compare the ES2 to pickups that are based on or build around microphones: LR Baggs Anthem, Fishman Matrix Elipse, K&K Trinity, etc. To be fair, you have to compare the ES2 to it's direct competitors: LR Baggs Element, Fishman Matrix Infinity, K&K Pure Mini, etc. And this is where it stands out, like the K&K Pure Mini.

One of the downsides of the ES2 is that most acoustic guitar amps are optimized for the normal piezo pickups, because these are installed in most acoustic guitars. When I play the ES2 into the guitar channel of my Acus One For Street, the sound is kind of muddy, because the channel is optimized for piezo pickups, to minimize the "quack". Same goes for the LR Baggs Lyric in my other guitar. When I play the ES2 into the mic channel of the Acus, into my Fishman SA330x or with just a DI into a PA, I get a very natural sound, that needs little to no EQ, depending on the system I'm playing through.

I don’t love the principal of it mainly! In 50 years most Taylors will just be reaching their peak but their electronic systems will be like dead weight albatrosses around the neck of the guitar. Those 3 holes in the front and the battery pack cut out will be absolutely ugly to repair in the future. I believe people will be so confused as to why almost every Taylor in existence then, will have those electronics burned out and outdated.

Sure you can keep updating the pickup whenever Andy decides he’s going to “reinvent the guitar” every 2 months... but to what end? Because Taylor will soon again likely decide that they will “revolutionize” the guitar without any plan to update your ES2 to an ES5? For example they charge $300 to get your ES1 to and ES2 but you don’t hear as much the updating of the Barn door fishman to an ES2. Why? Because that’s a HUGE hole to try and patch in the side of your guitar. I’m sure some exceptions luthier can do it, but should they have to?

Taylor makes guitars so why cut into the wood to add quickly outdated tech? Just seems like such a bad idea for a guitar you could pass down to future generations. I mean look at the “barn door” Fishman. I avoid those guitars like the plague. Great workmanship and often 3 piece backs, even an outstanding pickup. But that barn door is huge and will be almost impossible to make look good if ever removed. It’s like Taylor is placing revenue over legacy. Imagine if the World War II Martins had some pickup version from that time in it? Then imagine that they cut into the Martin in 2 glaring places to do it. Would those still be iconic guitars? Possibly but...

The “sticky note” *solution* on the ES1 is another example of bad tech. Most owners made it work but really??? Sticky notes to get your batteries to work correctly on $1000+ guitars?

The ES2 v1 that came out around 2013-2015 was so “hot” on the sound that Taylor had to issue guidance to help their field techs make the guitar playable. I had the most beautiful FLTD 516e but had to sale it because the ES2 was holding it back. The ES2 v.3 that most guitars have now is much better but compared to a LR Baggs or Kk Pure or body mic... there is just no competition. Often for me, the ES2 unless mixed well sounds so “Tinny” and “metallic.”

Ask any sound tech at a church (usually that’s where most Taylors are played) how hard it is to get a Taylor to mix well in that setting. I know tech folks who actually audibly groan when someone pulls an ES Taylor out.

And though those are my issues... my main avoidance is because of my first point. Taylor is a guitar maker. They should just focus on making guitars and let the pickup guys do their thing. Yeah it means they have to admit that the ES is not the end all
Be all, but it would show that they care about making realty good, legacy guitars. It may not be as lucrative or boastful but I do believe it’s good guitar stewardship.

I don't know that Taylors mission is to create 'legacy' instruments. They're mass-produced in the most automated way possible. They install pickups because many people that buy a guitar need to use them in a live situation and need amplification.

That said, I prefer the through-the-sound-hole controls and end-pin mounted preamp that Gibson uses because there winds up being no real mods to the guitar (except a 1/2" end pin hole), and certainly nothing that's proprietary.

Coming back to the ES2, I personally find the Taylors pick up a lot of string and pick noise - in a disproportional way. I find them pretty abrasive sounding, but it might be my technique doesn't gel well with the ES2 :lol:

What don't you like about Taylor's ES2?
 

This is a fair point. I suppose the holes in the bridge are more easily plugged with ebony dowels than the holes in the side. Maybe replacing the battery pack cover is a nice opportunity to have an engraved plate set in with a personal inscription.

I like the way it sounds, it needs "less" tweaking tone wise than anything else I use. On the CON side, it's a bit anemic.

I have three other acoustics (one a Taylor Grand Symphony that came with no pickup) with Fishman infinity pickups. (the other a J200 and the 3rd a 78 Yari Dy74)

They all have quite a bit more output than the ES2. I find I have to reach for the volume control on the amp and push it up a bit to equal what the Fishman output offers.


my other nit is the battery life is not nearly as good as other pickup systems. I have to be sure to keep spares as I've still not quite gotten used to the battery's quitting so quickly.

I also love ES2. As a single source system, the ES2 sounds great. It is indeed not fair to compare it to dual source systems with a mic. Still ES2 is way better than the UST’s out there in most guitars.

I think what frustrates most people is that they buy a high end taylor and they are stuck with a subpar pickup system. Taylor should offer their guitars without the pickup. Or like what other manufacturers do is they offer options from third party pickups.

If Taylor is going to update their pickup system, in my opinion, they should keep the 3 knobs. Though I’m not a fan of the barn door controls but to me knobs are okay. I like the convenience the knobs give me. If they can give me these 3 controls in a soundhole format, then that will be a welcome change.

That's interesting. Thank you for sharing :guitar:

I wish Taylor would make more acoustic guitars. Their acoustics they produce are vastly outnumbered by their acoustic/electrics. I wish it were the other way around, or that they ditched the holes and interior clutter and just offered an aftermarket system. But their target market is the acoustic/electric player, and they pad their bottom line hawking the ES2. Will Andy ever make a move to reverse that? Who knows.
I used to own a Taylor 416ce with the ES2 system. I never liked the system, and it had an issue with battery rattle. I sold it and replaced it with 2 acoustics, a 526 and a 717. I am much happier these days. Plus I have a heapin' helpin' of electrics when I want to get amplified. For acoustics, I want to stay pure acoustic, and pass on whatever electronics may be in them. YMMV.

The only thing I don't like about the ES2 is the fact that you pretty much have to have the ES2. I don't like having the holes drilled in the guitar in case you decide you want to go with a different system. Give me an LR Baggs unit any day of the week so that I can swap out systems as I see fit...

I also don't like the fact that if the guitar doesn't have an ES2, resale value plummets.

Some people have good luck with ES2 tonally -- I have heard them -- others not so much, and they have wrestled with getting decent amplified sound. Taylor has replaced the early pre-amps, which helped. But the whole system smacks of "not quite ready for prime time" when it was released. No thank you.

At some point Taylor WILL abandon ES2 (anyone remember their Solid Body electrics that suddenly disappeared one week?). When your legacy ES2 eventually dies and parts are not available, you will have to plug those butt-ugly holes in the bridge. I've owned nine Taylor guitars over the years, but none with ES2 - I'm just not going there.

I think for it's intended use, it's better than most, though some other systems may have tonal or logistical advantages. I think it's in the upper third of pickup systems I've heard. I think the LR Baggs Anthem betters it tonally.

As for the battery compartment at the end...well if you wanted to avoid big drilling altogether you'd want a lightweight solution like the K+K Pure Mini, which sounds decent, but by virtue of it's light install size, doesn't give you any tonal control. That will all have to be outboard, which is fine by those who prefer those lightweight system.

My thoughts are, if you are going to put in a system that needs 9v batteries, the Taylor install is one of the lesser offenders. Aesthetically, I really dislike the barn-door-on-the-top of the guitar method. My M32 has a B-Band A2.2 with a 9v attached inside the guitar. I dread the day that double sided sticky tape gives up the ghost and the battery starts knocking about in there. Also it's extremely inconvenient to get to the battery, I either have to greatly slack all of my strings, or do it on string changes.

I'm not worried about 30-40-50 years from now, and if some new, amazing pickup system is invented. First of all, at 50 years, the actuarial tables are not in my favor (though it's not unheard of, bless Ms. Betty White). But that's why we have these wizards of wood and electronics known as luthiers and guitar techs. If something new and awesome comes along, I have every faith in their ability to figure out how to install it into any guitar. And given how many Taylors are sold, there will be a sizable market for figuring out how to retrofit Taylors with said new electronic wizardry.

Bottom line for me, though, is despite the differences in sound, onboard electronics are always an approximation of the guitar's sound. So IMO the gulf between "great" and "meh" pickup systems is not that huge, when compared to what a properly mic'd acoustic with even a handheld recorder (I just got a Zoom H8 and am learning the included XY capsule) can provide. The gulf between the best on board pickup vs. the included XY Zoom capsule attachment...that's a huge difference. One sounds like my guitar, the other is every other onboard pickup sound I've ever heard. I view onboard electronics as a quick and dirty way to get a signal to a house PA where your guitar is going to be buried in the mix, or if you're solo playing in front of a small audience who really won't be able to tell the difference between a Taylor, Martin, Collings or Amazon Prime guitar in terms of tonality. If I'm really wanting to impress my friends with tone, I'm not using onboard electronics at all, I'm setting up a couple of inexpensive SDC mics. One can get a matched pair of Rode NT5s, XLR cables and stands for under $600. Feed that into an amp and you're cooking with gas.

I have 1 Taylor with ES2. I think it's a well integrated system and works decently for gigging. Getting to the battery is easy, can be plug and play for those times (like an open mic night) when it doesn't make sense to bring a lot of outboard gear. Feedback resistance is decent, control knobs are not in the sound hole - means you can use a sound hole cover and still be able to use them. And it sounds pretty good. Are there better sounding pickups out there with more options? Sure. But it gets the job done reliably with the least amount of hassle.

BTW - I think a lot of folks never bother to tweak it to make it sound as good as it can. I plug mine in and turn the screws at the saddle a tiny bit while listening. It can help to balance things out. Doesn't take much, just little micro adjustments.