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-   -   Recording in different rooms with a Zoom (https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=476512)

Doug Young 07-15-2017 12:51 PM

Recording in different rooms with a Zoom
 
3 Attachment(s)
TBMan mentioned having to record in an 8x8 room, which got me thinking about the impact of rooms on sound, and how having a small portable recorder lets us move around and experiment with different rooms and the effect they have. So I did a very quick experiment, recording a short clip (an Al Petteway segment, for Barry!) in 3 different rooms, using the Zoom H6 with internal mics. The rooms:
  • Laundry room: 6x9, 8 foot ceilings, obvious "untreated". I just plopped the Zoom H6 on a washing machine, pulled up a chair and recorded (See photo below)
  • Living room: maybe 12x15, with high ceilings. No room treatment, hard walls, carpet, open to adjoining rooms with tile floors. I just sat the zoom on an end-table and sat in the chair beside it. See photo below
  • Studio: I could have put the recorder on a stand and used an optimal place in the room, but instead just laid the recorder on the desk, sat in front and recorded. This room is at least treated. I had help on this one, see my engineer in the photo. He actually followed me from room to room as I did this, but he was camera shy in the other rooms.

Here's the results, no major editing, I just tried to match levels and added a touch of reverb. Note that because I was being so haphazard about the process - just finding a place I could lay the recorder near the guitar, mic placement varies quite a bit, which plays another role in differences, besides the sound of the room.

In sequence: laundry room, living room, treated studio:



The photos are out of order (studio first, then laundry room, then living room)

TBman 07-15-2017 01:12 PM

Nice comparison Doug!

I can hear a dramatic difference between the laundry room and the living room, then a more subtle difference between the living room and studio. The studio was the most well rounded recording. The Zoom H6 does a nice job.

KevWind 07-15-2017 02:54 PM

Ha ! love the way the cat appears to be watching the mouse.

I see the M7 is on the "Large Hall" do you like that for solo acoustic ?

rick-slo 07-15-2017 03:28 PM

Take advantage of cardioid mike directionality having mikes closer to but pointing away from one of the room's shorter walls (rectangular room shape).

Acoustic_Stevo 07-15-2017 03:36 PM

To be honest, Doug, I'd be happy with any of those results.
The studio recording sounds best, with a wider range of frequencies, but only because your hearing all 3 together. The laundry room sounds good, but then the living room sounds warmer and more together, but the studio has the living room warmth with more range (if that makes sense).
I always record with my Zoom H5 in my daughters room, with duvets hanging, acting as homemade room treatment, but I think I'll do a tour of the house and do a comparison recording.
Thanks Doug.

Fran Guidry 07-15-2017 03:49 PM

Doug, I remember years ago your telling me about a conversation with Joe Weed http://www.joeweed.com/studiopages/highlandstudio.htm where he said recording quality was something like 90 percent performance, 5 percent mic placement, 3 percent instrument, and 2 percent everything else (mic choice, preamps, a/d converters, etc. etc.)

The trouble with your demos is that the 90 percent is so darned good the rest doesn't matter, at least as long as the mics are pointed at the guitar.

Fran

Doug Young 07-15-2017 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick-slo (Post 5408933)
Take advantage of cardioid mike directionality having mikes closer to but pointing away from one of the room's shorter walls (rectangular room shape).

Better results could easily be done with attention to mic placement for sure. For this exercise, mic placement was limited to "where's a flat surface I can lay the recorder on?". I didn't even audition how it sounded. Lay it down, aim toward me, press record, play.

Doug Young 07-15-2017 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KevWind (Post 5408900)
Ha ! love the way the cat appears to be watching the mouse.

I see the M7 is on the "Large Hall" do you like that for solo acoustic ?

He likes to lay on my mouse. Makes it a bit hard to get things done....

I go back and forth on the Bricasti settings. The Large Hall can be a bit too much for some things, but I do use it a lot, mixed in low. I have that on my"speed dial" knobs, along with a couple of ambiance settings, Studio B, and D, and "Guitar Room" - which is probably just that I'm suggestable, but it does seem to sound nice on guitar.

Doug Young 07-15-2017 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fran Guidry (Post 5408954)
Doug, I remember years ago your telling me about a conversation with Joe Weed http://www.joeweed.com/studiopages/highlandstudio.htm where he said recording quality was something like 90 percent performance, 5 percent mic placement, 3 percent instrument, and 2 percent everything else (mic choice, preamps, a/d converters, etc. etc.)

The trouble with your demos is that the 90 percent is so darned good the rest doesn't matter, at least as long as the mics are pointed at the guitar.

Fran

Thanks for the kind words. I do find that in most cases, when I'm not liking a recording, it's not the gear, it's me - if I work on playing better, somehow the mics start doing their part better, too.

Trevor B. 07-15-2017 05:36 PM

For presence, clarity and detail the studio wins big time for me. I'm guessing the cat's in the same camp.

Chin music 07-15-2017 06:23 PM

Great post. It concerns me though that I can hear practically zero difference between all three recordings with a set of AKG MKii headphones on. I'm 48 years old and have definitely noticed my hearing degrade in the last 3 or 4 years.

They all sound good to me.

rick-slo 07-15-2017 06:39 PM

All sound pretty similar. However that is not too surprising with x-y miking. Also the closer the miking to the guitar the less difference to be expected.

Doug Young 07-15-2017 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick-slo (Post 5409134)
All sound pretty similar. However that is not too surprising with x-y miking. Also the closer the miking to the guitar the less difference to be expected.

I wouldn't use the Laundry Room take, the guitar's too harsh sounding, but it could probably be tamed down a bit with some EQ. The close micing is of course the key if you don't have a good acoustical room. It may not be ideal for all desired sounds, but it works. I actually find spaced pairs to be more forgiving than XY - spaced pairs are what I use for my you tube videos, which are also shot in an untreated room, and I think some of the room sound gets lost in the more spacious sound of the spaced pairs. But of course, it all varies.

rick-slo 07-15-2017 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Young (Post 5409340)
I wouldn't use the Laundry Room take, the guitar's too harsh sounding, but it could probably be tamed down a bit with some EQ. The close micing is of course the key if you don't have a good acoustical room. It may not be ideal for all desired sounds, but it works. I actually find spaced pairs to be more forgiving than XY - spaced pairs are what I use for my you tube videos, which are also shot in an untreated room, and I think some of the room sound gets lost in the more spacious sound of the spaced pairs. But of course, it all varies.

Basically I just don't like the sound of X-Y acoustic guitar miking in general so it's hard for me to pick a winner. XY starts off phasey so I guess the additional
deleterious effects of certain room reflection is less apparent.

Doug Young 07-15-2017 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick-slo (Post 5409362)
Basically I just don't like the sound of X-Y acoustic guitar miking in general so it's hard for me to pick a winner. XY starts off phasey so I guess the additional
deleterious effects of certain room reflection is less apparent.

I know you're not a fan of XY, but maybe "phasey" isn't the right word? XY is quite phase coherent, it can't be "phasey". Curious what you hear with XY. I know you've discussed the effect of mono - which I think may actually come from listening to mono on stereo speakers - I hear that, too - reflections. But XY sounds fine to me, I especially love the sound of a stereo mic, preferably in MS, but XY is fine, where the stereo image can be quite remarkable (maybe due to the optimal and precise capsule placement?). One disappointment I have with the Zoom H6 is that it comes with an MS mic module, which is basically unusable due to self-noise. I really wanted that to work. The XY module is fine, tho.

in any case, this wasn't intended to pick a winner (I don't think it's much of a contest - I'll take my treated room any day). I just thought it'd be interesting to demo the impact of different room acoustics as well as see how a simple recorder with cheap built-in mics worked in non-optimal environments.


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