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-   -   Taylor 414ce out of tune (https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=562758)

nickwillfred 11-04-2019 04:44 AM

Taylor 414ce out of tune
 
Hi, recently I have been playing more on the top of the neck of my Taylor 414ce. It is out of tune in the sense that the octave (ie 12 fret including the knuckle) is not actually on the fret but slightly below it. So the notes on the 12 fret are very slightly sharp.
I contacted Taylor, but they could only suggest sending its to a repair shop (I live in the Dordogne in France, so postage + repair prohibitive).
I am keen to effect the repair myself (I am a competent repairer), but need to know which shims I might need to get the repair right.

mirwa 11-04-2019 05:33 AM

I am lost, if you are a competent repairer then what exactly do you need, most repairers myself included make the majority of our spare parts from the raw product, what is it your envisaging is needed to carry out the repair

Steve

MC5C 11-04-2019 05:41 AM

If the action is correct and the relief is right, then the neck doesn't need to be shimmed. It sounds like the intonation is slightly off, which is very common - it depends on string gauge and action height so a small adjustment in compensation is needed. If the fretted notes are sharp, the point of contact on the bridge saddle needs to be move slightly further from the nut, so the string is longer. Any competent luthier or technician can do this, and you can as well, if you are good with a file. You might was to get a new saddle and work on it, so that your original one is preserved.

Dwight 11-04-2019 08:36 AM

Try different strings, compensate when you are tuning, don't worry about it, play the guitar. Lastly, if it is actually out of tune bring it to a Taylor service center where they can adjust the neck length using shims.

charles Tauber 11-04-2019 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwight (Post 6202919)
Try different strings, compensate when you are tuning, don't worry about it, play the guitar. Lastly, if it is actually out of tune bring it to a Taylor service center where they can adjust the neck length using shims.

1. No one should "just live with it" nor should one constrain themselves to a particular type of string in order to improve intonation. Many commercially made guitars do not have very accurate intonation out of the box. Most can be adjusted to have quite good intonation. Ideally, one chooses the type, gauge and brand of strings one likes and has the guitar intonation setup for those specific strings.

2. intonation in not adjusted by changing the length of the neck. Typically, it is adjusted by changing the actual vibrating string lengths by changing where the individual strings break over the nut and saddle. Adjusting the string length at the saddle (saddle compensation) is relatively easy to do.

Borderdon 11-04-2019 12:56 PM

As above ^^
- why anyone would choose to “live with it” is beyond me.

Taylor Ham 11-04-2019 09:50 PM

If the saddle is worn, the actual breakaway point of the string could have moved down slope toward the sound hole and sharpen the compensation.

If the action (saddle height, nut slots, or both) and relief can come down, it probably should. But that is probably obvious. Still, Taylor build their guitars very precisely to intonate at a specific action set up, and with any deviations from the factory spec and that precision can work against you.

Some action measurements at the first, 12th, 19th fret plus relief may help diagnose the problem.

DenverSteve 11-04-2019 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charles Tauber (Post 6202944)
1. No one should "just live with it"

2. intonation in not adjusted by changing the length of the neck. Typically, it is adjusted by changing the actual vibrating string lengths by changing where the individual strings break over the nut and saddle.

+++^^ This from Charles.

Talldad 11-05-2019 02:52 PM

As others have said, factory build guitars are made within tolerances but sometimes exceed limits.

Correct tuning of your guitars is a multifactorial problem.

When you fret at the 12th you make the string longer and hence increase the pitch slightly. The higher the strings sit over the fretboard, the more they are elongated when fretted and the sharper the pitch. If all of the strings are playing sharp at 12 the first thing I would look to reduce is the nut and bridge heights.

If they are good then check the break angle on the nut, should be set for strings to come off the very edge.

If all the strings are sharp at 12th then your saddle is in the wrong place and needs moving backwards, buy a new one and start over. When you move the break point on the saddle backwards be aware that all the notes will drop, not just at the 12th fret.

Spend some time making a map of the sharp/flat errors at each fret. It could even be that all of your frets are fab except the 12th which needs filing backwards.


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