LR Baggs 'Dual Source'- what a disappointment.
 

I have been experimenting with acoustic amplification for only about 6 months now. With a good dose of Eq and a couple of efx foot pedals (Boss), I have been able to get some nice sound from Taylor ES system as well as from a Fishman Rare Earth Humbuckler and an M1. As an aside, I actually prefer the Fishman - it sounds more balanced and generates less extraneous sounds (with my agressive strumming).

The magnetic pickups sounded pretty good but I thought I would try to add a second non-mag source to really fill-in the sound. I was thinking of combining the Fishman with a K&K mini. For starters, I thought I would try this combo on my relatively inexpensive (but nice-sounding) Blueridge BR180. I took the guitar to a highly recommended acoustic repair shop on Music Row in Nashville. I explained what I wanted to do, but the proprietor, Greg, told me that the best pick-up would be a LR Baggs 'Dual Source'. He said he installs lots of them and that his clients love them. He sounded very confident and I was intrigued. I looked at a few reviews on the web and I found nothing very negative about the system. I found the usual positive comments, so I decided to take a chance and trust Greg's judgement and experience. I am now regretting my decision.

The 'Dual Source' system consits of an internal mic and an undersaddle ribbon transducer. The sound (with a little eq) sounds fairly acoustic. In this respect it is better than the magnetic pickups that I tried. However, even when I do some light fingerpicking, the initial string attack generates a very pronounced 'thump'. The only way to get rid of this 'thump' was to really cut the bass. However, I had to cut the bass so much, that it started sounding thin and scratchy. I even tried 'notching' the bass - no luck. In case you were wondering, the 'thump' has very little to do with my right hand position (hand sits on the saddle/bridge). I still get the 'thump' when the hand is off the bridge.

Has anyone else tried this pickup system? Can you suggest some adjustments that I might try? Would it be appropriate to ask Greg to take it out and get at least a partial refund?

I am thinking about trying something much less ambitious such as combining the Fishman Humbuckler with a simple PUTW sound-board transducer ribbon. Any thoughts?

thanks for your help,

James

Ps: my signal chain: blueridge acoustic (LR baggs DS)--> Boss pedal(slight chorus)--> Boss pedal (slight reverb)-->DTAR Equinox EQ -->Highlander Pro Acoustic Mix DI(more eq) --> Bose L1 (personal PA)

D tar Wavelength is my new favorite pickup. I wouldn't dare gaurantee you'd like it, but I've had mine for less than a week, and I can't shut up about it. I am useing it as my only pickup right now. Most natural sound I've heard from an undersaddle personally. And because of the high headroom preamp, most natural dynamics I've heard from any pickup.

I've noticed this "issue" with my Dual Source, but it was never a long term problem. The key was to dial down the ribbon with the remote control when you turn up the mic volume. 25% mic, and 75% ribbon usually gets the best mix for me.

I don't think I've ever used more than 25% volume on the mic without engaging the stereo switch and splitting the mic and ribbon signals into the mixer. I wish I had some clips so I could post the "acoustic" sound of it, but unfortunately I just got to work.

I can definitely replicate the problem (especially with aggressive strumming), but only when I turn the mic up too high. However, with the settings above, I beat out plenty of rhythm onto the body for looping and even that doesn't clip.

It could also be an issue with mic placement -- each and every guitar has a sweet spot for it (you just have to trust your luthier here).

Edit: Forgot to mention, I love mine!

Mine is just outside the center bracing -- making it just off center, about 2 inches closer to the endpin than the neck joint. Height-wise, it's dead center.

And that's kind of what I was getting at for the original poster -- as long as you dial down the pickup in relation to how much you're up on the mic, it'll sound fine. If you punch them both to 100%. . . pray you're not standing near a monitor.

Do you now have three sources, the original mag, an internal mic and a UST (Baggs ribbon I guess)? I'm not sure how you have things wired, but I would suspect you are blending he UST and mic onboard, which is a bad idea. An internal mic really needs its own separate gain and eq prior to any blending.

Edit: Looking at your "PS" about your signal chain. I think you might want to rethink things a bit, in terms of the sequence, as well as whether all those items are needed or helpful (harmful?) in your signal chain. For example, I count 4 preamp gain stages (assuming the two pedals provide no gain themselves - if they do it would be 6 gain stages). Plus, there's two analog EQs plus the digital EQ in the PAS - do you really need that much?

Yay forums are back!

Made it home for lunch and recorded some very quick clips.

Larrivee D-03R to PreSonus Firebox through George L. cables. No EQ, effects.

http://www.makeharmony.com/tagf/

Ribbon30Mic100.mp3 is what ljguitar suggested.
Ribbon70Mic30.mp3 is what I usually play with.
Ribbon100Mic0.mp3 is pickup only, of course.
Ribbon100Mic100someclipping.mp3 is both maxed out. I had to lower the overall input of this so it wouldn't clip (and it still clips twice, slightly).

James - I'm currently using a Baggs Duet II (which is, I believe, the same preamp as the Dual Source). It originally had an LB6/ Internal Mic combo that sounded nice. I have since replaced the LB6 with a K&K PW Mini and it sounds fantastic. Your issue could be an install problem. A lot of work is required to find the "sweet" spot for the Mic. Whatever you do - as ljguitar already implied - replace the Ribbon. In fact - I thought LR Baggs replaced the Ribbon with an Element UST on the Dual Source, but I'm not sure. It would be a huge improvement.

Sdelsolray,

I too was initially concerned about have 3 separate eq stages (highlander, equinox, and Bose PAS). Actually, I only added the Highlander as a 'Lark' since I was a little disappointed with the results I got from the DTAR equinox. However, I was very pleasantly surprised with the sound I got from the extra eq (using the Fishman Humbuckler as the only pick-up). It was great. The systems really seemed to be complementary. It did not take long to dial in a nice airy acoustic sound (though still a touch 'maggy').

On the other hand, you do raise an excellent point about the gain stages. I need to take a closer look at how hot the signal is when it arrives at the Bose. I will experiment with trimming it at the equinox and highlander boxes and boosting it at the Bose. I have to say though, that I am not optimistic that this will solve my 'thump' problem.

Finally, I like the idea of splitting the summed, mono signal of my 'Dual Source', then separately eq'ing and volume-adjusting the 2 signals. That idea has high potential. Actually, I wanted to do that last night before I posted - didn't have the necessary cables, though. I will give it a try soon and post my results.

Thanks again, everyone. I am feeling a bit better about the situation.

James

PS: once I get the Dual Source sounding decent (great?), I will try to add in the Fishman Humbuckler. This may be overkill, I know. I am trying to acheive a punchy, lush, and balanced acoustic sound. Right now, it is boomy, thumpy, and scratchy.

Also, I just called my guitar repair guy, Greg. I explained the problem and he says he will change out the ribbon for the element. He promised to 'make it right'.

Jim

Let us know how your experiments go.

As to the "thump" issue, if I'm understanding you correctly, I think that's an inherent "quality" (or lack of one) with internal mics and SBTs. Each type of pickup (SBT, internal mic) picks up body sounds, tapping, even stomach growls. Perhaps your thump is being caused by your right hand when you are playing and the internal mic is simply doing its job and picking that sound up.

Mic's Place
 

Hi drjgs300,

By your description of your Dual Source mic placement, "a couple inches closer to the endpin than to the neck block" would put it almost directly under the bridge, no?

That would make the mic very sensitive to the resonance coming right off the bridge, which is more direct. It means that you will hear more of the initial attack than the decay. To reduce this, try placing the mic deeper into the body, closer to the bottom ladder brace.

That should provide a more even response to the string attack and the subsequent decay.

I've used both ( and still do) and I have experienced the "thump" too but only when running through a PA system with too much sub woofer. If that is the case roll the low cut off at about 80 to 100 hz. Also it could be the bottom of your saddle slot is not completely flat.

This has to be a record 11 year old thread brought back from the cobwebs:(