V-bracing and Taylor's Marketing Machine... so NOT impressed.
I know there is another thread about Taylor's new V-bracing, but I decided to open this new one to focus more on the transition from Taylor as an open, honest and passionate guitar builder to the manipulative marketing machine they seem to have turned in to. As a long time Taylor player, I am so not impressed, and actually feel like I am not taken seriously anymore as a customer.
Let me get one thing straight: I love Taylors and I owned just about every body shape of their top models. I purchased several dozens of high end Taylors in the last 15 years or so and I still own a handful of their top-of-the-line instruments, including BTO's. Fantastic guitars! And that's why it really saddens me to read all the marketing yadayada Taylor tries to convince their customers with today. It is all so fake, it's not sincere, and often the arguments don't even make sense from a physics point of view. So, this morning I received the Taylor Insider email with a link to the video What is V-Class Bracing where I saw Andy Powers sitting in his cabin, staring out of the window, scratching his chin and sketching in a Robinson Crusoe style diary, tinkering with wooden sticks, allegedly inventing V-bracing. Oh please guys... how old do you think your customers are by the time they can afford a Taylor? This is all so clearly put in scene and made up... just like the whole rest of the story. This is not how a top manufacturer designs guitars. I'll tell you what really happened. Taylor, or maybe Andy, has been experimenting with different bracings. Of course! If you have a Taylor factory at your disposal you can make ten guitars every day with all kinds of wild bracings and simply try them out. Fantastic, and its great they did this. And so, one of those new patterns actually sounded pretty good, and they decided to productise it in a limited series. So far so good. At that point, they should have done something like this: http://www.peghead.nl/IKGS/_Media/sc...1-26_med-3.png Now that would have been an honest and open customer communication that would have shown respect to me, as one of their better customers, and all other Taylor addicts. And it would certainly have attracted me to the Taylor headquarters in Amsterdam to try one of these new machines out - and even buy one on the spot. But after this whole fake fairytale story full of pseudo science and makebelief... it will probably take a while before I go to Amsterdam. And in the mean time I wish Bob fires the Taylor marketeers. They are ruining what was once a great company i.m.h.o. |
It's been said that there's no such thing as bad press. In your desire to express your discontent with the style of Taylor's marketing their new bracing, you've actually helped to spread the word. Don't know if that was their strategy, but in this case it certainly worked.
I've been very pleased with the revoiced models that I purchased, and will assume that there will be some tonal advantages to this new bracing; but Taylor's marketing won't be enough to either steer me toward or away from running out to purchase a V-braced model.... |
Taylor
The final proof is the end product, not the marketing pieces.
I'll reserve judgement until I get the chance to play one of the redesigns. You'll notice that there's only one Taylor in my sig and it's an older one. None of their recent designs has impressed me enough to lay down my money. We'll see if that changes. |
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Although, does anyone feel like they are trying to be too artsy with the bracing? What's next? Flowers and Trees Inlays on the back of the top? |
Interesting reason for being irritated at Taylor. I viewed the link and thought it was typical Taylor advertising. There's always got to be something new to encourage the fan base and potential buyers.
Not a Taylor owner but I've always enjoyed the ads and their innovations. Of course it's up the buyer to vote w/ $$s or not. |
I’m not a big Taylor fan, but respect what Bob and now Andy have done in the guitar world. One thing struck me while watching the videos was Andy explaining how his new bracing solves a problem with sustain and volume. I’ve played many uitars that I don’t believe have any problem in either of those areas. I don’t know t was an issue?
In fact, after watching the video someone posted last week about the goodall factory, I thought “those guitars are mondters in sustain and volume”, and it’s done with traditional-ish x bracing. I applaud Bob and Andy for their continued efforts to improve the guitar, but it was all a bit much for me. I would like to play some examples of the new bracing alongside comparable acoustics by Taylor and others, just to hear the difference (real or supposed) myself. |
So you're saying they should have spent countless hours on R&D, retooled their factory, and come up with a new design and then had an ad campaign something along the lines of "Taylor--we changed some stuff; whatever...":rolleyes:
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Satisfaction is determined by the relationship between what you expect and what you actually get. Hyping a product, as this ad campaign has, sets expectations pretty high. If the guitars are really that good, then the ad campaign will have been a success. If they're not all that good, then lots of people will focus more on the overstated virtues of V bracing than on any of its actual benefits. (Although, of course, the ultimate measure of success in any ad campaign is generating sales, not product improvements.)
Bill Collings would certainly say glowing things about a lot of his guitars. Sometimes, I think he may have gone a bit too far. But I always sensed that he genuinely believed what he was saying and wasn't just trying to hype a product. His passion came across as sincere, not as staged. The Waterloo line is a good example. Pretty much everything he said about them I found to be true and I understood completely why he decided to build those quirky guitars and what they offered that other instruments didn't. That may end up being the case with Andy Powers' claims. If all the praise he's heaped (or hyped) on these guitars is justified then I think we all owe him a tip of the hat. If the differences arising from V bracing are minimal, then some will feel betrayed by the effort to convince them that the empror's new outfit is really all that. I really don't think we know yet which scenario will play out. And even after a bunch of the new guitars have made it into the wild, I suspect there will be differing opinions. |
A. Why start another thread? Seems over the top.
B. Have you played one of the V braced models? C. What if their story is true? Why believe some faceless poster on the internet? D. Lighten up. |
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I am curious about playing one and letting my ears and hands do the evaluating. I am also curious about what other builders assessments will be, given that it is exciting when someone in an industry takes a risk by doing something new with an old idea. Best, Jayne |
They should probably have a picture of Lloyd Loar in their advertising as their "new" bracing looks a lot like Loar's tone bars from the mid-20's. Really looks like the bars on an oval hole Gibson L4. Maybe they had a seance.
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There is actually a good chance that Andy Powers' story about surfing is true. I would rather see a well shot video giving the idea then read a long article.
There is a term called Biomimetics. It's where various engineering disciplines take things from nature and apply it to how we engineer things. It's quite remarkable actually. |
Yesterday I spent about 5-7 minutes playing one of the newly braced Taylors at the NAMM show. My personal opinion as someone who is just your average player is there was little perceivable difference. Perhaps a bit more response from the top for someone who has a very percussive style playing, but as your basic strummer and light fingerpicker I really didn't notice much difference from what I am used to with my regular Taylor and R. Taylor guitars.
Just my initial reaction and observation for what it's worth. Cheers, Mark |
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I'll add some levity. I had to chuckle at the segment where Zac Brown played way up the neck and stated "try getting this out of your guitar" or something to that effect. Apparently Zac hasn't played many upscale or custom build guitars.:lol: E. People have opinions and they like to state them. No biggie. |
Since this has come up in a couple of Taylor threads, let me clear up one thing right now. The interior shots of Andy working are shot in his "private" workshop at the Taylor facility. It is on the first floor the executive building which you don't go into normally on the Taylor tour. This is where Andy goes to work everyday at Taylor. It's not contrived, it's real. I saw and heard the new V-line braced guitars yesterday at NAMM. My initial takeaway is that this is not the breakthrough difference that the re-voicing was. But if you have ever been to NAMM, you know it's not the best place to really hear how an acoustic guitar really sounds. More to follow when Ted gets his initial order and we can a/b them with a current model (the 914CE with the new v-line 914CE)
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I wonder how well the Taylor Marketeers play guitar... |
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It's easy to see why this is a bit offensive. I'm sure the new voicing delivers at least some of the things claimed (the better projection/volume/sustain on notes played high up the neck come through in the videos), but I'm also certain that it won't be for everyone just because tone/timbre in general is so subjective and what you want for one performance situation could be different than another. It is not and never will be one guitar voice that makes everyone happy. Any guitarist who's been playing for a few years knows this and Taylor seems to be saying "we have THE answer to a problem you've always had" and it seems disingenuous. Bob Taylor's biography reveals a lot. Under Bob and Kurt's leadership creative advertising has been used but they've also been transparent in letting the world know that their product is largely machine built. The transitioning with V-Bracing advertising follows this trend they started after announcing Andy Powers as Bob's successor. The image projected is a master craftsman working in his shop building a guitar just for you. That's what the advertisement wants the viewer to think. Quote:
Going back to the early days of Taylor, Bob Taylor outlines in his bio the importance creative marketing has had. So even Bob Taylor is saying in an indirect way that it's the brand building through advertising and marketing that is as much responsible as the product itself for their success. That clever advertising and not the quality is what separates them from companies like Larrivee and Breedlove who have also been successful but not nearly as successful as Taylor. As far as bringing a unique guitar to market at a reasonable price, I'm much more impressed with Breedlove's guitars than Taylor's and I believe if Breedlove had better marketing and advertising that they would be bigger than Taylor, but the product's quality only doesn't sell the product. I think Taylor's advertising message of "we build a better guitar" has always been different than Gibson's and Martin's. The traditional builder's guitars sell on legacy and that legacy includes specific iconic models but also in brand reputation. In order to bring a product to market that could break through those deep roots other companies have, Taylor had come out swinging with bold (over hyped) claims from the beginning. So while some are thinking "I can't believe they are going this far with advertising" part of me is thinking "It's just Taylor being Taylor, maybe you haven't realized how much their clever advertising lured you in years ago". |
Marketing aside, I got to play the new guitars yesterday and it sounds like they might have something to brag about, regardless how Andy came up with it. I am very much looking forward to playing the new models alongside previous version in our store in the next few weeks.
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Yeah, that marketing clip was a little over the top. But I like the guitar and was impressed with the great intonation and sweetness high on the neck of the guitar demonstrated well by Zac Brown. I'm dubious, however, that Taylor has created something above and beyond other great guitars when it comes to sustain and power.
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I'm pretty sure Taylor tested this design and proved it before marketing.
It's not a drawing from a 1st grader. It's from one of their guitar designers with years of experience. Taylor won't invest time and $$$$ on a design that's inferior to existing one. Why is it fake? Why does Taylor, already highly reputed guitar company, need to convince customers? Once buyers play it, they'll know whether it's good or not. They are not trying to market a pumpkin as a guitar. Innovation leads to new things and initially it gets comments like this from those who haven't even played it and who never built a guitar. |
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I can’t blame Taylor for trying to come up with something they think is new and better. Any business should be looking for innovation. They can pile on the marketing fluff all they want. It's their money. Beyond the marketing, the question is if this is simply a solution in search of a problem?
I guess this thread is beating a dead horse to an extent, but isn’t that what forums do in so many cases? I would guess we all have different reasons for logging in to forums. Some do it to express an opinion because they want to be heard, some to be truly helpful by sharing their expertise, some to rant, some to learn, some to kill time, and some to run up their post numbers for some personal gratification it gives them to see that big number next to their moniker. I’m sure there are many more reasons, but it is not uncommon to see several threads with the same theme. We don’t HAVE to read each one, but many do. The reader and responder (me in this post) not only beat the horse, we drag it around the barnyard a bit. |
Slick, even ad nauseum, marketing is no reason to write anything off, of course. When does marketing ever engage reason, depth, substance? If it seems as though it does, it is only because it is appealing to that part of your emotional makeup that takes comfort in reason, depth, and substance.
What's behind all of this, however, is a very thoughtful and creative builder, with a great set of ears and deep musicianship. I found THIS podcast , put out yesterday, to be an excellent distillation of the deep thought that went into this new design: https://player.fm/series/taylor-guit...-class-bracing I admire the way that this is presented, with the exception of the two interviewers who, tho well-intentioned, serve to interrupt an otherwise substantive chain of thought. As a physician, I constantly struggle with how to explain complex biophysical principles behind patient's problems and the solutions that I propose. Andy Powers does an admirable job here of discussing waveforms, harmonics, constructive and destructive interference, and his attempts to solve the inherent contradictions. As far as the other stuff that's come out -- the soft lighting, the slow mo of chisel on a long finished soundboard...I just turn it off, focus on the steak and not the sizzle, and save my indignance for things that matter :) |
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