Fingerpicking, Alternating Bass and Bad Habits
 

I do a lot of fingerpicking and have for over 50 years. Being self-taught you can pick up some bad habits. Some time back I had the great good fortune to open for Chris Smithers in a small local club (I think I was the only guy they could find who was about the same age) and got to talk to him about this some, specifically on alternating bass. On most acoustic blues tunes I stick pretty close to using a strict alternating bass but will sometimes skip a note if something else fills in the empty space. Always bothers me. Smithers said he misses a bass note pretty often but his foot tapping fills it in pretty well. More importantly he said you can become kind of obsessive about this stuff, especially on country based acoustic blues with the alternating bass rule kind of carved in stone. Ironic because the guys who invented this style of playing pretty much threw the rulebook out the window. I suspect they were too busy playing to spend much time agonizing over missed notes. Still, it's kind of jarring to suddenly realize you've been doing something "wrong" for most of your life.

Any thoughts on this?

What would be "jarring" to me would be to realise that what I'd been doing all this time actually sounded wrong. I.e., to realise I'd not been listening properly all those years!

Technically - like you - I developed a few (what might be called) "bad habits", being self-taught.
Really, they are nothing but "unorthodox" technques - which, as you say, all the old guys had anyway, in that they all had their own idiosyncrasies. They had a lot of things in common technically, but each had their own take on it, their own style.

For a habit to be a "bad" one, it has to hold you back in some way - prevent you from improving, or from playing something you want to play which ought to be achievable.

For me, my own unorthodox habit is that I use my middle and ring as my primary picking fingers, with my index as a spare. This has not held me back much - I can still use all three when I want! - except with certain classical pieces where traditional p-i-m-a arrangements are required; which would be easy enough for anyone properly trained in those RH finger patterns.

As for alternating bass, it's common in folk styles to miss the occasional thumbstroke (especially beat 3), and a lot of blues fingerstyle is not alternating bass anyway.

And in terms of listening - yes I did get a lot wrong in the early days, learning stuff by ear, but back then getting "close enough" was fine by me. It was also fine for people that heard me play - nobody ever winced at any wrong notes, or told me I was getting things wrong (the reverse in fact). One time, as an amateur, I had a pro (who I was supporting) tell me my playing gave him "a kick up the arse". But over the years I have got more interested in precise details that I missed back then. I try not to get too obsessive about it - I know very well that one recording is only one take, and a second might well be different - but it's a little like becoming a wine connoisseur, where you enjoy all kinds of trivial factors that most people miss. I like to immerse myself in the music (no, not in the wine...), savour all the details.

Hi Adrian,
Long ago I too was fortunate to open for Chris Smither, and it was one of the first things I noticed about his playing. He's steady as a rock, but never concerned about bass notes that aren't in the chord as long as they're on the beat.

I always assumed, right or wrong, that it was mostly intentional; a way to 'rough it up' in an odd way.

It works for him, very well, no doubt.

Best,
Howard Emerson

I do a lot of Travis Picking alternate bass but I'm only using the index and middle. I'm trying to learn Freight Train from Mark Hanson's book which uses Travis Picking with alternating bass but uses all three fingers ring, middle index for strings 1,2 and 3. I found that I was using just the index and middle, and now I'm forcing myself to use the ring finger for the 1st string that is used in the fingering in the book. I played it as well with the two fingers as with the three fingers, but I wonder if I'm just wasting time trying to use all three fingers. One of my reasons to learn it with the ring as to increase the skill with the ring finger when finger picking as I typically don't use it.

The "blues" encompasses many styles, alternating bass is just one of them. Many old blues was "monotonic" bass or "dead thumb", like Mance Libscomb, where the bass is like a metronome on the beat and it follows the 1,4, 5 pattern rather than the alternating bass of most country blues styles. Sometimes the bass just stays on the root 1 note through the whole song and is more for percussion to accent the beat, it follows your foot tap on 1,2, 3, 4 for a 4/4 beat. But even then, for a lead riff, it is totally acceptable to skip the bass during some fills and it helps add some flavor to an otherwise overly repetitive song. The other thing I enjoy is to do a bass lick lead that was popular in the old early blues, but not so common in modern blues. Another exception to the "rule".

But really none of the rules really matter if you get a nice sound you like and that is what I like about the blues. There are so many styles to play and they have there basic "rules", but then you get to be creative and do what you want. The blues is about expression and creativity to get some emotion out of the music is how I see it, so anything goes.

One "rule" I think is good to follow with the bass is to stick to the 1,2,3,4 beat on the quarter note and avoid 1/8 notes with the thumb, unless it is a bass run lick. I think that happens with many players learning fingerstyle, kind of a nervous habit maybe??

If I am working on a new song, or in a jam situation, I try and just focus on the bass line first with my thumb, then I fill in the rest, the syncopation and melody with my index or middle finger once I get the tune locked in with my thumb.

I know you have played for a long time, but I think this video Daddystovepipe aimed for "beginners" is a really good lesson for all fingerstyle players interested in blues as he goes into so much nuance and detail that goes way beyond beginner level on blues fingerstyle technique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnEsEZS9020&t=295s

And after this video lesson, watch this more advanced one and notice when and why he will stop the bass to do lead licks and how that sounds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fnr98Xc--u8&t=248s

An interesting takeaway for me is the variation on the blues in E halfway through the 1st video where he plays an A bass drone under the B7 chord in order to get the freedom to reach different notes of the B7 chord without having to be anchored by fretting a B note in the bass. I'll have to try that one out, it always seemed a little frustrating to me having to have the left hand anchored on B7 when it's free to move all over the place on the E and A chord.

"An interesting takeaway for me is the variation on the blues in E halfway through the 1st video where he plays an A bass drone under the B7 chord in order to get the freedom to reach different notes of the B7 chord without having to be anchored by fretting a B note in the bass. I'll have to try that one out, it always seemed a little frustrating to me having to have the left hand anchored on B7 when it's free to move all over the place on the E and A chord."

Yep, that is how many of the old timers did it, or they just go back to the low E string for the 5/B chord. Seems you can use the 4 and 5 chords/notes interchangeably in old style blues and/or other substitutions. The B is always a bit of a hassle for reasons you described, especially for an E shuffle, but there are a few go arounds . Mance would just thump on the low Estring through entire songs with a heavy right hand damping for a rhythmic percussive tone.

I use my index finger to bar the first 4 strings (A chord position) at 4th fret and the pinky is free to fret a melody line or just the first 4 strings in a bar E position up on the 7th fret with pinky free again to add some melody, but most times I just do the B7 near the nut and use an alternating bass going from 5 string to 4 string and 6 to 4 for 2 bars. But yes you have to fret the F# on the 6th string while also fret the melody on the higher strings if you want to add some melody and syncopation. Easy to just skip the melody part and focus on the lower notes, then add the rest in later.

I do a lot of Piedmont style blues where you do an alternate bass line and there is a definite alternating pattern to play exactly on the beat, normally accenting the 2 and the 4 of each bar. For key of E, you alternate 6th to 4th string, then for A is is 5th to 4th string and the B it is 5th string to 4th and then 6th to 4th string while reaching up and fretting the F# on 6th string. If you just practice a 12 bar (or 8 or 16) blues and only focus on that pattern, it will become mindless. Maybe do it will being distracted with some TV or daydreaming, then you know you have it locked in to auto drive. Then you can work on variations up the neck and eventually add in syncopated melody with left pinky and right hand fingers. I think that was original question.

Thanks! I've been playing for about 60 years but sometimes I think I peaked when I was 16.....

There are missed bass notes and then there are alternatives to base notes.
The first case I suppose one would not want. Instances of the second case is often the best way to play it.

Pppsssss! Don't tell anyone! But no one is actually listening to your playing - they are waiting for you to sing the next verse! As long as it is "pretty" and sounds rhythmical behind your voice it doesn't really matter. If you go back to the source Merle doesn't say "listen to the instrumental breaks and my fine guitar playing"; he says "listen to the story".



And strict "Travis picking" would be thumb pick and index finger only - not that many folks who say they "Travis pick" actually adhere to that "rule".

So I wouldn't be toooo worried about creating your own style from watching other players rather than strict adherence to any "rules". If it sounds good, then it is good.

Here on AGF we do have a tendency to look at the guitar either fingerpicked or flatpicked as solo instruments for playing tunes. But most of the players whose styles we emulate were singers first and foremost. Even the modern young flatpickers like Molly Tuttle and Billy Strings primarily write and sing songs. Here is Molly's latest release - not a flatpicked fiddle tune, just a great song from a great singer.



Jean Ritchie noted a similar issue - she was a folk singer first and foremost but folks associated her with the mountain dulcimer (she played guitar more). She would get asked at concerts and festivals by mountain dulcimer players which of her albums had the most dulcimer on it. So she released an album called "The Most Dulcimer" just for them.

Anyway, side line over - now get back to learning those tunes. :D

There are no bad habits. There’s what works and what doesn’t.

The old timers missed bass notes, especially but not only during instrumental breaks. They could keep quite a driving rhythm with just the top three strings.