Dave's compact PA system adventures...
 

Howdy fellow gearheads,

I'm always looking for the best options for amplification. It's one of my interests besides music in general. My needs are simple. I need a rehearsal system for simulating stage use, that can occasionally be put into action. Most places I play, including our club, have a PA system and sound person. As such, I don't want it to take a ton of space, be overly loud, or cost a fortune. But, I do need it to be rather full featured so I can tweak my setup.

I posted my review of the Carvin S600B and you've probably already read my review of the Line 6 L2t system. In summary, both are terrific units for what they do best. In the past few years, my sound reinforcement needs shifted wildly because I was getting involved in different groups with different needs. Solo, duo, rock band, string band, folk group, etc. Now I have two perfectly competent units at my disposal.

I wanted to post my review before I posted this thread so as not to give the wrong impression about my opinions of these systems. While both have obvious strengths, each has some limitations for me.

1. The Line 6 sounds great, and works for electric and acoustic. I highly recommend it. It's great if you have band mates who also own them. But, if I am going to keep only one personal PA system, I ultimately want it to be a line array for maximum flexibility. I'd also prefer not to have to keep a speaker pole setup in the studio to have the controls within reach.

2. Read my review of the Carvin S600 and you'll recognize that I have tremendous respect for the engineering of this unit, but I'm not the intended audience. I don't have enough people playing with me. I don't rehearse loud enough. And, I learned this week that the farmer's market gig this summer evidently IS providing power. So, now I don't even need the battery.

Since my immediate needs are for solo amplification, at rehearsal volume, I will likely keep the Line 6 L2t. It sounds warmer at low volumes. Should I opt to get a new system in the future, I would likely go with some sort of "box and stick" design that sounds good and warm at low rehearsal volume in my studio, as well as performance volume.

Cheers!

Thanks for the S600 review, I see you have both the line 6 and Carvin up for sale. So whats next? I might get the LD Maui, not sure if I should get the 5 or 11G2. I think the 11 might be overkill for my needs considering many reviews say the 5 is loud enough and at that price two 5's and a small mixer for larger rooms. I wish someone would come out with one of these line array systems with a real mixer built in and batter powered. The Carvin looked perfect but it seems to want to start in second gear which is not good for home/small room gigs.

Dave's personal PA system decision...
 

I'm thinking either the JBL Eon One, Harbinger MLS800, or maybe splurge for the Bose L1S. I'm also considering turbosound, LD Maui with my Yamaha mixer. But that's more to carry.

Or, I really like the HK Lucas Nano 608i.

If I can get a good price on one of the first three, I'll probably go that way.

Good analogy for starting second gear.

I have my L2t on Craigslist pretty cheap. It's not so much the money as it is the space.


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POSSIBLE PROBLEM WITH A LINE ARRAY SYSTEM: Something to be aware of is that "full-range" line-array systems have the woofer on the floor, which is great for most venue situations, but isn't so great when you have a packed house with an audience right on top of you, e.g., a St. Patrick's Day bar gig. Yes, of course, we all know about bass-coupling with a floor surface that increases bass response, and that bass frequencies are more omnidirectional than mid- and high-frequencies. However, with a wall of people a few feet away, something to be aware of is that with a bass speaker on the floor the crowd can both absorb bass- and lower-mid-range frequencies and reflect them back at the performer. Absorption of bass frequencies firing into the legs of the crowd reduces bass content for audience members farther away from the system. Reflection back at the performer of bass and lower mid-range frequencies can cause feedback as these reflected-back frequencies can both hit the performer's guitar and enter the vocal mic.

I've blown a 12-inch bass driver in a 3-way ElectroVoice stand-mounted speaker during a St. Patrick's Day gig. The speaker would howl with feedback whenever the close-in crowd would shift a bit one way or the other. This, mind you, with the speaker elevated to ear level, and the system turned-up quite loud to overcome the ambient noise level of the celebrants. With a line-array system, not only is there bass-frequency content being absorbed and reflected back but with the column of mid- and high-frequency drivers also firing into the bodies of the crowd, the potential, especially, for feedback may be increased with a line-array compared to a pole-mounted speaker system.

Speaker Systems I've owned,

1976 to 1984 (that I remember):
Peavey 2-way PA passive (pair)
Peavey 3-way PA passive (pair)
Whirlwind Lens Two-way passive (pair)
Bose 802 Panaray System (seven speakers)
ElectroVoice 3-way passive (pair)
JBL Cabaret passive (pair)

2006 to present:
Mackie SRM450 Active (pair)
Fishman SoloAmp
QSC K-10 Active (pair)
Bose L1 Compact
Bose L1 Model II with ToneMatch and two B1 Bass Modules
Line 6 L2t Active (one)

Bolded-in speakers are the best-sounding YMMV.

Dave's personal PA system decision...
 

Thanks Ken! Helpful as always! I had not considered the issue with large rowdy crowds. Especially when my fellow Irishmen imbibe. :-). I still contend that my Line 6 sounds excellent. It's just a little hard to use in the studio. For instance, when using effects, they are essentially inaudible when using the Line 6 at low volume. Any suggestions? Change the DPS on the speaker?

Should I just keep it and get a little practice amp? My assumption was that the line array would be better for quiet practice and stage volume.


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Good info above. Like Dave I am looking for a good sounding, low volume home/gig solution. I live in Zurich where space costs money so I dont have the space to have an amp for this and an amp for that.
I think I may go with the LD Systems Maui. They have a really good reputation here in Europe, German engineering and all that. A few reviews in German tested the Maui against the Turbosound. The Maui was prefered as not only having superior sound but also a more rugged build quality over the Turbosound (Behringer). Many reviewers also stated that the Maui has a more natural and less processed sound than a Bose L1 unit. LD is less known in the States so it may be harder to come by. The Fender Expo is a rebadged LD unit so look for that. The JBL system is also on my radar but the LD is cheaper by about €250. Thats a good mixer or some other toy.

Very nice info. I hope it's "Valid". :-). I looked at the Maui 5. That's a nice unit for use with a mixer, maybe even a T1 from Bose. The onboard mixer is bare bones, but would also work with a TC Play Acoustic.


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Dave's personal PA system decision...
 

I setup the Line 6 in monitor position and used the acoustic guitar DSP. Seems like I should have been smart enough to try this first. It works better at low volume. I'll play around some more.


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How about something passable like an Acoustic A20 or A40 acoustic amp for an on-sale price of about $120/$199? Fairly lightweight and decent sounding. Another suggestion would be an UltraSound AG15 or AG30 for similar prices?

Watch out for something I call the "Down the rabbit hole, chasing rainbows syndrome," which I've suffered from, and still suffer from. The Line 6 L2t, IMHO, is as good at it gets for an decently-priced, active PA speaker. Actually, any quality speaker should be good if you work with it. In the studio, adjust the effect strength (reverb, etc) of the Line 6 L2t so you can hear the effects better at lower volume or use a TC Helicon Play Acoustic or TC Helicon VoiceLive to add effects that are better than any onboard effects on any PA speaker.

Actually, I don't like effects, especially on an acoustic guitar, and especially when playing live because they just muddy-up the tone. A little reverb on the vocals is about all I've ever used but I've tried everything, including the MXR Pitch Transposer, circa 1979 or so. Get a load of this: This was a rack unit on which you setup presets, and then activated them with a multi-button footswitch, to turn-on/-off, in real time, the correct preset to activate the correct harmony interval for the series of vocal-melody notes you were singing. Talk about being a song-and-dance man!

My recent purchase of a new Deering Sierra 5-String Banjo is my way of breaking free of the "Down the rabbit hole, chasing rainbows syndrome." It's my way of saying to myself, "Over $200,000 worth of guitars and gear over the years means enough is enough!" It was a fun but expensive journey. YMMV, but you've already got some really good gear, that can and will work well for you.

Based on advice from a couple of fellow AGF members, AlohaChris and Sdelsolray, whose experience and opinions I highly respect, if I was starting all over, and wanted the best passive loudspeaker for solo or small-group performance, I'd buy a pair of Daedalus W-803 speakers, and the necessary quality amp and mixer for them.

Based on my own experience, if I wanted excellent modern, active speakers, within a reasonable price-range, I'd buy either a pair of Line 6 L2t Active Speakers or a Bose L1 Model II system.

Excellent! You had it all, all the time, right in front of you!

I read a thread in a European forum, can't remember if it was in English or German, where someone from LD was an active user. According to LD they did not add a mixer because they thought it compromised the sound and said they found the best results by using a small external mixer. According to LD, to build a mixer (to their standards) into the unit would raise the total price beyond their target. LD went on to say you will get much better results by using a small cheap mixer like the Zed 10. That's why they left it out. Knowing how German minds tick I can totally understand. They would rather leave it out than make something inferior. That said the new 11G2 and 28G2 has an updated mixer, although extremly basic. YOUz SHOOD UZE YOU OWN MIXXA! Says LD.
Still might get the 5 and a mixer. Loads of reviews saying the 5 can bump an 80-100 person party without the limiter lights ever blinking.

That makes a ton of sense. Even Bose expects to sell you a $500 mixer to use their expensive systems at their fullest.


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Looking down rabbit holes chasing rainbows can be fun sometimes, but mostly it just costs a lot of money. Blowing money is fun too, I can think of worse addictions. Lol. I am currently looking over my shoulder at my wife thinking what's the best way to break this to her.......start with the Bose? Then go to the 11 before negotiating on the 5? Always start high.

I have really enjoyed reading through this thread. Thanks to the OP for sharing his journey.

The Adventures of GAS part III.

As soon as I wrote the message above my wife looked at me and said "Your not ordering anything are you? You just got a guitar thingy for 400 bucks"
Well ****, there went my strategy riiiight out the window.
Guess I'll have to wait a bit longer, back to the drawing board/ Wifejitsu gym.

To be continued........

Dave's compact PA system adventures...
 

It is wise to retreat and fight another day.

In the meantime, my gas is subsiding. Getting the low volume thing figured out above was a big $ saver.

The more research I do, it becomes obvious that finding a portable line array system that includes the sound quality, and features I've gotten used to, is an expensive proposition. There are plenty of good little line array reinforcement options, at a modest price, but none contain the features I already have in the Line 6 mixer.

In a pinch, I can sum the TC PA pedal to mono and send it to the line input on the back of the unit, and reserve the two full channels for another singer/guitarist. And the 10" woofer and amp are sufficient for that. The only thing it lacks is the line array, which is more of a "nice to have" feature for my present needs.

I hope Line 6 releases a line array version of this system. I suggested so via there feedback forum. One can hope.

Using a good sounding budget line array (less than $1000) requires lugging my Yamaha MG10XU mixer, plus stand and cables. For solo work, that is a lot of extra stuff. I could maybe get away with the TC PA acting as a sub mixer, but that makes on the fly changes difficult.

OpenRoadMatt and I were discussing his similar conclusion via PM. If I was a duo or trio, and had loading/unloading and setup help, I probably wouldn't mind. Like Matt, I think the JBL Eon One is the best sounding budget option I've been able to test in retail stores. What it lacks in comparison to the Line 6 product is chorus effect, 3 band EQ with mid sweep, acoustic resonance modeling, DSP, and automatic feedback suppression. Note, the feedback suppression is pretty incredible. Now, if you need a one hand carry line array system for less than $1000, all the features above can be added to the JBL with an outboard device or two and you're in business. For instance, the dbx goRack adds a lot of functionality to a budget line array system or a set of powered speakers.

As it stands, I have enough gear to perform and rehearse. Finding an elegant solution, moderately priced, that includes everything in one box, is very much a trip down the rabbit hole, as Ken so appropriately put it.

Ultimately, I'd be looking at a Bose L1 II/T1/B2 with the goodies. That's a $3,000 system! Or the Lucas Nano 608i with some sort of gorack through the aux feed. If I made my living playing, maybe I'd consider it.

Good luck with your Wifejitsu and your GAS dissipation! Let this post be the rain you need for your parade.


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Dave's compact PA system adventures...
 

I'm still considering options. I had written a long post about augmenting the Line 6 equipment. But after testing the setup with the mixer last night, I actually prefer the sound quality of the built in Line 6 mixer and speaker. The Yamaha mixer is great, but it needs a different speaker configuration to be most useful.

I'm going to hold off until I find a more compelling solution.

After my initial skepticism, my Bose L1C would now have to be pried from my cold dead hands. Unless we're playing stadiums, that's what we use. If we ever do play a stadium, I'll just get a whole bunch of 'em.

Dave's compact PA system adventures...
 

Lol. That's great. How do you contend with the limited input situation?


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Small Behringer mixer I keep right next to me. There are higher dollar mixers but this gets it done and provides reverb/delay, eq. For the throw and go gigs we play after they push some tables out of the corner, this is the way to go.

Nice. Do you output to the 1/4" input on the line setting? Do you still use the mic input? My curiosity is that a big selling feature is the tonematch dsp. But that doesn't work on line setting through a mixer.


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No, we either send a line into the right side input or to the RCA inputs. We don't use the mic input. I thought the Tone Match thing was too expensive and a little too digitally for my taste. It reminded me of when I was still working and they gave us digital anesthesia machines and computers. There I didn't have a choice. Here, I do.

Thanks for the info. When I was looking into systems originally, I really liked the Bose L1C, but the engineer in me was dissatisfied with the limited input options. Of course, the other choices I have I been considering aren't much better in that department. I'll go back to GC and demo those units again and see which I like best.


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Did our first duo gig with the Bose L1C and a Yamaha mixer. Actually we each have an LC1. Not a lot of room in the corner of this particular pub and the Bose units were literally right beside us.
Had a bit of low end issues with my partners guitar but it was probably 12" from the sub. Had we been able to get a bit more distance I'm sure it would have been fine. Went for a walk around the pub while he was playing a tune and it sounded glorious!
Was torn down in 5mins.
Love these things



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I had similar concerns and didn't want to drag tons of gear everywhere I went. I put my Play Acoustic and my small mixer on my pedalboard. Everything is prewired so there is only a single hookup to any system or can be two (as in DI or stereo). This also limits the power outlets needed. I also have some room left for a para di or switch 3/6.

Just a thought that thus might work for your setup.

Dave's compact PA system adventures...
 

I went to GC today with my L2t and Yamaha mixer with the intent of trading them in towards a Bose L1C. After trade in, friends and family coupon, and tax, I spent $100 and am walking out the door with the Harbinger MLS800 for my home/rehearsal system. With the Play Acoustic, it sounded better to my ears than the Bose L1C and JBL Eon One at lower volumes. Straight in, it sounded great too.

The JBL Eon One would have been a better choice if I needed the additional power. The Bose sounded good too. But, I wanted the second XLR I put for the TC Play Acoustic.

Mission Accomplished.

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That's great! Glad you found what you were searching for. I think this Harbinger/Kustom/Powerwerks stuff gets a bad rap - as did Behringer. However I think they all have made improvements. For those of us who don't use these tools to earn our living, I think it fits the bill. I, like you, have tried a ton lately and have been impressed with the options now available. So many options available at many different price brackets.

Did Bose have a patent on these small line array units that recently ran out? Seems funny that so many options are now available.

David,

What's the return policy on the Harbinger? Are you also going to use it for live solo gigs? JBL is running a special on the EON ONE: EON ONE plus a JBL Rolling Gig Bag for $1028.99 at Sweetwater. These small systems aren't true line-array systems. If line-array is what you want, and you're going to use the system to play out with, I'd go for a Bose L1 Model II or the Turbo Sound iP2000. Then again, why not just a second Line 6 L2t?

I have 45 days return policy. Allow me to explain myself, my friend.

In the future, I won't need it for more than a 50 person folk event, or rehearsal at home.

I've decided not to do the bar or wine bar gigs any more. It's not worth the little bit of money.

After last weekend, I've pretty much had my fill of the noise and lack of attention, and carrying the stuff. I end up spending most of what I make on a quick dinner and drinks. :-).

I went through the same process last year, but decided to give it another go. I'm done. Too many work and family demands. I do get asked to sit in with another friend who plays a local wine bar. He lugs a full Yamaha PA system for the occasion. So, I'll just plug in and help him do the loading at the end.

I'll still do the charity band, and my folk club. I might start an open mic (to benefit the folk club) at a local coffee house. I've been in talks with their owner. But, he has a system, as does pretty much every venue I play. And, I can bring this thing in a pinch.

The Harbinger is not a professional quality system. Nor does it have the features and headroom of the 800 watt professional Line 6 equipment. What it DOES have is great clean tone at low volumes and Bluetooth.

I can use it at home, or my folk club, without a speaker pole. Basically, anywhere the Bose L1C works, this thing will work too. Another consideration is that my wife HATED the Line 6 on a pole, setup in our recreation room, which was how I was using it to reach the controls and power switch.

Ken, I appreciate all the help with the Line 6 equipment. It's been great! For a pro, it's a no brainer. It's just heavy and overkill for my needs today. If I decide to go back out and do a duo thing (banjo/dobro buddy) in the future, I'll reassess my needs. And, I'd likely try one of their new systems at that time. I might even consider the the full Bose system, assuming he chips in too.

I purchased my Line 6 after negotiating on an open box last year. In fact, I went in that day to just buy a little practice amp. Today, I actually got the same amount of money in trade and the weekend sale ended today. So, I decided to downsize while I had the chance.

Thanks again for reading.


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Yes, I understand now, no problem. For the conditions you've described, the Harbinger should do well for you. :)