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Knives&Guitars 11-24-2018 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomB'sox (Post 5899608)
I will be shocked if this is the case. I can not believe a headstock veneer will affect tone at all.

Oh, oh....did not mean to create a stir.... ha ha...
It is only an assumption.. and Honestly, I have no experience in this area.
I always hope that everything has some influence. Kind of fun to hope in this way.

Tim McKnight 11-25-2018 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars (Post 5899210)
After your great reply, I can not help but ask one more.
From other experiments I have done, I am under the assumption that the peghead overlays do make some tonal influence. I noticed that you are using Braz for headstock overlay instead of using cocobolo to match the back and sides.
Are you doing this for tonal influence? Or is it strictly a cosmetic addition.

Truthfully I am using a book matched BRW overlay because that is what our client requested.

As for the tonal influence my gut says it has very minimal impact on the tone ... but the engineer in me says it [could] be a very small factor. If you attach a heavy weight to the peg head of your guitar you can hear a subtle change in timbre but that is only after adding several ounces of weight, like a large heavy C-clamp. But the change is subtle, at least to my ears. Now a peg head over lay weighs a few mere grams so I would wager that only a very precise electronic transducer and computer software might see the effect on a spectral plot but that is only an opinion and not a proven experiment that I am aware of.

Decades ago, Dan Ashcraft sure thought excess weight, at the peg head, made a discernible impact on the tone of an instrument. Dan would modify Waverly tuners by removing as much metal from the frame plates as possible. He would bore (or hollow) out the string posts, shorten the overall length of the posts and minimize the buttons to an absolute minimum all to shave a few grams from each set of the tuners. Dan was also the first one, that I am aware of, to scallop the nut, by removing material between each string. He also scalloped the saddle as well but he had another theory for that which I won't get into for this discussion.

I will be the first to admit that I understand the least about the neck and its total influence on the sound of a guitar. I'll use the analogy; is it the tail wagging the dog or is it the dog wagging its tail? The neck's function certainly is important since it anchors one end of each string. I do understand that stiffer and heavier necks will increase sustain while lighter necks tend to lessen sustain but they [can] also increase the dynamic "pop" and power of the guitar.

Some say the fingerboard plays a sonic role and we could open that can of worms but bandwidth doesn't permit. The backwards angle of the peg head can also impact the break angle of the strings over the nut which creates a lever or moment onto the neck itself. There are lots of theories but I have read little proof of concept in actual testing though evidence may exist?

I will say that if one places a guitar in a hanging stand, then attaches a ToneRite (Oh My) onto their guitar strings and then run their fingertips ALL over the guitar, neck and peg head, one can learn a LOT about where vibration nodes exist and finally what vibrating surface areas are the most active and least active. One thing is certain, there is a LOT of vibration going on in the neck and peg head but don't just take my word for it, try it for yourself.

Tim McKnight 11-25-2018 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nacluth (Post 5899295)
Great thread and pics!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenneth Casper (Post 5899605)
Beautiful work there, Tim! Enjoyed the photos.

Ken


Thanks Ryan and Ken for the kind words and for following along.

Knives&Guitars 11-25-2018 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim McKnight (Post 5899959)
Truthfully I am using a book matched BRW overlay because that is what our client requested.

As for the tonal influence my gut says it has very minimal impact on the tone ... but the engineer in me says it [could] be a very small factor. If you attach a heavy weight to the peg head of your guitar you can hear a subtle change in timbre but that is only after adding several ounces of weight, like a large heavy C-clamp. But the change is subtle, at least to my ears. Now a peg head over lay weighs a few mere grams so I would wager that only a very precise electronic transducer and computer software might see the effect on a spectral plot but that is only an opinion and not a proven experiment that I am aware of.

Decades ago, Dan Ashcraft sure thought excess weight, at the peg head, made a discernible impact on the tone of an instrument. Dan would modify Waverly tuners by removing as much metal from the frame plates as possible. He would bore (or hollow) out the string posts, shorten the overall length of the posts and minimize the buttons to an absolute minimum all to shave a few grams from each set of the tuners. Dan was also the first one, that I am aware of, to scallop the nut, by removing material between each string. He also scalloped the saddle as well but he had another theory for that which I won't get into for this discussion.

I will be the first to admit that I understand the least about the neck and its total influence on the sound of a guitar. I'll use the analogy; is it the tail wagging the dog or is it the dog wagging its tail? The neck's function certainly is important since it anchors one end of each string. I do understand that stiffer and heavier necks will increase sustain while lighter necks tend to lessen sustain but they [can] also increase the dynamic "pop" and power of the guitar.

Some say the fingerboard plays a sonic role and we could open that can of worms but bandwidth doesn't permit. The backwards angle of the peg head can also impact the break angle of the strings over the nut which creates a lever or moment onto the neck itself. There are lots of theories but I have read little proof of concept in actual testing though evidence may exist?

I will say that if one places a guitar in a hanging stand, then attaches a ToneRite (Oh My) onto their guitar strings and then run their fingertips ALL over the guitar, neck and peg head, one can learn a LOT about where vibration nodes exist and finally what vibrating surface areas are the most active and least active. One thing is certain, there is a LOT of vibration going on in the neck and peg head but don't just take my word for it, try it for yourself.

Once again a wonderful detailed explanation. Thank you so much.
The Way you explain things and your acceptance of all the possibilities that could contribute to sound, put you on top of my list for guitars to try out. I really look forward to that day.
Back in the Early 80's I bought a Brass headplate for my Strat. The Brass covered all of the headstock. The manufacturer premise is that you would get lots of sustain. The Brass plate attached on the underside, with the tuners going through. And indeed, you did get a lot more sustain...but LOST-Killed all the dynamics. Lasted all but five minutes on my guitar.
I guess the trick is to get both sustain and dynamics..... Or more realistic, the best balance between both.
I do not even like playing with a strobe tuner attached to the peghead. I hear a subtle difference. Yet, on the other end of the scale, I also hear differences between the various wood buttons. Small, but there.
What ever the differences, I really like your explanations of your strengthening the peghead through your shorter carbon bars, and how you laminate the sides so as it does not effect the tone and also strengthens. Makes lots of sense.

Tim McKnight 11-26-2018 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars (Post 5900059)
Once again a wonderful detailed explanation. Thank you so much.
The Way you explain things and your acceptance of all the possibilities that could contribute to sound, put you on top of my list for guitars to try out. I really look forward to that day.
Back in the Early 80's I bought a Brass headplate for my Strat. The Brass covered all of the headstock. The manufacturer premise is that you would get lots of sustain. The Brass plate attached on the underside, with the tuners going through. And indeed, you did get a lot more sustain...but LOST-Killed all the dynamics. Lasted all but five minutes on my guitar.
I guess the trick is to get both sustain and dynamics..... Or more realistic, the best balance between both.
I do not even like playing with a strobe tuner attached to the peghead. I hear a subtle difference. Yet, on the other end of the scale, I also hear differences between the various wood buttons. Small, but there.
What ever the differences, I really like your explanations of your strengthening the peghead through your shorter carbon bars, and how you laminate the sides so as it does not effect the tone and also strengthens. Makes lots of sense.

Good morning K&G,

I do try my best to approach building guitars with an open mind. It didn't take me long to realize there are many paths to a finished product. Its the pot holes and stumbling blocks along those paths that teach us the error of our ways. That is where I learn those difficult but lasting life lessons that are not easily forgotten and hopefully not repeated.

Personally I get a lot of enjoyment from this forum not only by sharing my limited knowledge with others but also learning from other builders here. Its a great community in that we can all share ideas openly with one another as we continue this learning journey. While players are seeing the beauty of our craft I and perhaps other builders get as much enjoyment by looking in the background of their posted pictures. I get to see the tools they use, jigs and fixtures they employ and an understanding of their approach to accomplishing similar building sequences.

It sure sounds like you have a very sensitive pair of ears which is rarer than you may give them credit. Please take care of them and protect them from hearing damage and hearing loss. Having spent 38 years in a fortune 100 manufacturing factory I know first hand how damaging excess noise can be to ones hearing. Employees were tested annually and our hearing loss was charted for us to (sadly) see the change from year to year. In the latter years we were required to wear hearing protection anytime we were on the production floor. I only wish we would have had that rule 38 years earlier :cry: Now I am stuck with some hearing loss that likely could have been prevented, or at the very least, significantly reduced.

The brass headplate accessory you've described seems similar to the Plate Mate accessory, which mounts on the opposite end of the strings. That device certainly has a discernible affect on the sound of a guitar. It also has the added benefit of salvaging a bridge plate that is worn out and in dire need of costly replacement of which the value of the guitar might not justify that replacement cost?

Mary 11-26-2018 09:07 AM

Commercial break:

McKnight Guitars gift package drawing

See this drawing post in the general forum for a chance to win a free gift package from Tim and Mary on December 15, 2018.

Knives&Guitars 11-26-2018 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim McKnight (Post 5900750)
Good morning K&G,

I do try my best to approach building guitars with an open mind. It didn't take me long to realize there are many paths to a finished product. Its the pot holes and stumbling blocks along those paths that teach us the error of our ways. That is where I learn those difficult but lasting life lessons that are not easily forgotten and hopefully not repeated.

Personally I get a lot of enjoyment from this forum not only by sharing my limited knowledge with others but also learning from other builders here. Its a great community in that we can all share ideas openly with one another as we continue this learning journey. While players are seeing the beauty of our craft I and perhaps other builders get as much enjoyment by looking in the background of their posted pictures. I get to see the tools they use, jigs and fixtures they employ and an understanding of their approach to accomplishing similar building sequences.

It sure sounds like you have a very sensitive pair of ears which is rarer than you may give them credit. Please take care of them and protect them from hearing damage and hearing loss. Having spent 38 years in a fortune 100 manufacturing factory I know first hand how damaging excess noise can be to ones hearing. Employees were tested annually and our hearing loss was charted for us to (sadly) see the change from year to year. In the latter years we were required to wear hearing protection anytime we were on the production floor. I only wish we would have had that rule 38 years earlier :cry: Now I am stuck with some hearing loss that likely could have been prevented, or at the very least, significantly reduced.

The brass headplate accessory you've described seems similar to the Plate Mate accessory, which mounts on the opposite end of the strings. That device certainly has a discernible affect on the sound of a guitar. It also has the added benefit of salvaging a bridge plate that is worn out and in dire need of costly replacement of which the value of the guitar might not justify that replacement cost?

Yes, I too wish I had been more careful about wearing hearing protection. I worked with Belt grinders for many years. And previous to that, I came from the days of Loud guitar amplifiers. Unfortunately, I am sure I have some hearing loss as well.
And in the natural order of age, some hearing loss is most likely inevitable. Time escapes no one. ha ha

David Wren 11-26-2018 06:31 PM

Tim ... your build threads are my favorite on the entire forum ... really REALLY well done as far as I'm concerned (Mary deserves some credit too I gather?). I'll definitely be following this one too!

Tim McKnight 11-28-2018 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Wren (Post 5901364)
Tim ... your build threads are my favorite on the entire forum ... really REALLY well done as far as I'm concerned (Mary deserves some credit too I gather?). I'll definitely be following this one too!

Wow, I'm truly humbled by your words David... and thanks for following along. Yes, Mary does deserve a LOT of credit for her participation in all of our projects. She takes 90% of the pictures and does most of the design work on the front end. She also provides an extra set of hands at just the right time.

Tim McKnight 11-28-2018 07:34 AM

Glue is precisely applied to the kerfed lining strips:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/2i...g=w679-h904-no









Then the glue is spread by our precision glue spreading device:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/jL...g=w679-h904-no









The kerfed linings are clamped in place by just the right color clamps in just the right places.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/bY...=w1207-h904-no









Excess glue is washed off with hot water and a super duper shop cloth (usually an old sock) :eek:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/SG...=w1207-h904-no




https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/G2...4=w679-h904-no









Then the glue cures for an hour before repeating the same process on the other side of the rim:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/4n...=w1207-h904-no

Guitars44me 11-28-2018 08:38 AM

Another Sterling Thread
 
I, too, love your explanations of what makes TONE ! And your theories too.

Thanks for sharing with us all. This is truly a wonderful place to hang. Always something to learn...

Have FUN

Paul

Tim McKnight 11-29-2018 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guitars44me (Post 5902655)
I, too, love your explanations of what makes TONE ! And your theories too.

Thanks for sharing with us all. This is truly a wonderful place to hang. Always something to learn...

Have FUN

Paul

The colored clamps we use impart their own special mojo into the TONE equation Paul but that's a closely guarded secret so mum's the word on that one, OK ;)

Tim McKnight 11-29-2018 07:09 AM

The peghead gets some adhesive using two special glue spreading devices:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/x2...=w1207-h904-no









And this second glue spreading device is on loan from my special friend Ronald:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/3-...=w1207-h904-no








The peghead cover plate is set into place:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/B6...=w1207-h904-no









Then clamped with another special one of a kind "hand" tool:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/9m...=w1207-h904-no









And voila:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/G4...=w1207-h904-no

fitness1 11-29-2018 07:25 AM

You're getting a little too high tech for most of us there buddy!;)

j. Kinnaird 11-29-2018 08:39 AM

It is a lot of fun following your build threads. I have "borrowed " more than one building technique from watching you go through the process.
And how great is it to have a photographer on staff. if I were to take a pic similar to your special 2 hand clamping procedure the camera would need a tripod, a time release, focus trials, etc. etc. and I Ain't doing that.


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