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-   -   Your assignment...should you decide to take it Mr. Phelps... (https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66583)

ljguitar 08-09-2005 09:11 AM

Your assignment...should you decide to take it Mr. Phelps...
 
Hi all...
My giggin' partner Mark and I are preparing to do some recording this fall, and are starting test recordings.

We are combining the test recording phase with a project to assist Michael Bashkin develop some clips of his guitars for his site, and we knocked this one together last evening in the studio with a pair of handbuilt Bashkins. One is my personal OM cutaway the other a slightly larger model with Malaysian Blackwood/Italian Spruce.

Mark is playing this cross picking style (flat pick with fingers too). I am purely a fingerstylist.

Your comments, critiques, insights are invited (and appreciation too?!!).

http://www.larryjacobsen.com/bashkintest1-05.mp3

The second clip I offer is a test recording of my personal Bashkin, a 4 month old OM sized Myrtlewood/Italian Spruce, cutaway with fanned frets. I love the way the tone on this guitar is developing.

http://www.larryjacobsen.com/bashkintest3-05.mp3

Techincal details:
The duet recording is a pair of Rode NT-3 mics (3/4'' diaphragm) placed at about 20'' from each guitar aimed at the neck/body joint. We sat across from each other with the mics between us so we could watch each other play and give eyebrow signals.

The solo piece (really just accompaniment to an old Bob Bennet piece Carpenter Gone Bad) is a two mic recording...one at the neck/body joint the other aimed at the sweet spot between the bridge and bottom edge of the guitar. Both were probably about 12'' away.

Signal chain is short...mic to tube preamp to MOTU interface. All were recorded without EQ, with just a touch of e-verb.

dthumb 08-09-2005 09:37 AM

I listened to both..very nice, particularly the solo piece. It has a sweet Spanish flavor. It may be on my end but, to my ear, there seems to be more"brightness" than I would like to hear ( remembering, of course ,that I play a Martin) and a certain lack of bass presence in both but, like I said, that may be on my end.I'm sure it sounds very different live.( the only REAL way to hear...heheehe)..PLAY ON!

roadking 08-09-2005 10:20 AM

Song for Sunday - very melodic and relaxing. That's nap on the couch music. I liked it. The guitars are bright and focused, but I thought the bottom end was full and had plenty of thump. The trebles have some Gibsonish spank and the mids are complex. Very cool sound.

The second track shows that the Bashkin is a good percussive players guitar. I could imagine L.J. slapping that one. Nice work, guitar and players alike. Well done.

LarryH in Texas 08-09-2005 10:54 AM

Well done, indeed.

I believe that, if I lived in Cheyenne, I'd be knocking at your door for lessons/mentorship.

Guyute 08-09-2005 11:39 AM

Yes, I'm going to pop in and be another voice in the chorus of, "Wow, that's good stuff." On my admittedly anemic speakers, Song for Sunday sounded pretty much like the guitar was in the room with me. The bass was a little subtle, but I attribute that a lot more to the speakers than the recording (as most have no bass response on these).

The only complaint I had was that the volume overall might have been a little low and I had trouble hearing your explanation at the beginning of the recording.

As for the solo piece, it was also very nice....did I catch a little vocal outburst from you at about 3:20 on that one? I'll say this, you (and a handful of other people from the AGF) have really impressed upon me how cool fingerstyle guitar can be. Makes me wish I'd taken lessons years ago (before all my lack of discipline and shoddy technique were set so firmly in place).

ljguitar 08-09-2005 12:09 PM

Thanks
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Guyute
...The only complaint I had was that the volume overall might have been a little low and I had trouble hearing your explanation at the beginning of the recording.
...As for the solo piece, it was also very nice....did I catch a little vocal outburst from you at about 3:20 on that one?

Hi Guyute and Guys...
Yes it is a bit light, and that will be fixed tomorrow in the studio when I do some other recording.

The bass is played a bit too light, because Mark, despite the fact he is an awesome bassist, has never learned to hit the bass strings with any force, and I hate to upstage him on duo pieces, though live I do carry bass and some light lead work at the same time for the challenge.

The Malaysian Blackwood guitar has a great bass punch, which will likely show up on any solo recording of it I do.

You did hear some vocalizing a couple times in the solo track...it is the accompaniment track to a song entitled ''Carpenter Gone Bad'' and it's hard not to sing...thanks for noticing.

jjloomis 08-09-2005 12:15 PM

Songs themselves are good, I'm going to put in my two cents about the recording. (Please keep in mind that I'm a recording purist and overall recording gear snob). Here's my thoughts. When doing stuff like this, that's really a demonstration of the guitar's capabilities and overall sound, I think it's important to have a very basic signal path, flat eg, and no effects whatsover. I have never worked with Rodes, but they don't seem like bad mics for the money. I'm probably going to be getting a MOTU unit by this year's end based on the reviews I've read which are pretty favorable. I know we just had a discussion about pres, but what tube pre are you using? My suggestion would be to stereo mic one guitar at a time, running the mics into the MOTU's pres, leave the EQ flat, don't add any effects. That'll give you the best representation of the actuall sound of the gutiars.

http://www.harmony-central.com/Featu...ecAcousticGtr/

XY technique is the easiest. I wouldn't worry about mono capatability in this day and age.

jjloomis 08-09-2005 12:23 PM

Just another thought, if you know anyone that has a pair of SM81s, try to barrow them. I love them and swear by them for small diaphram stuff, as do most people that can't take the next step to a 1600 dollar pair of Neumann SKM184s. (Although, in your case those would probably fit the equation that mics used on a guitar should cost at about half of what the guitar costs. Actually, you would probably need to get some Earthworks if you were to go by that equation).

Guyute 08-09-2005 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ljguitar

You did hear some vocalizing a couple times in the solo track...it is the accompaniment track to a song entitled ''Carpenter Gone Bad'' and it's hard not to sing...thanks for noticing.

Interesting. I was going to mention (but then I got distracted), that your speaking voice sounds vaguely familiar....makes me figure you for a pretty solid tenor. Do you do much singing in your regular gigs? Or is it mostly just instrumentals?

SteveS 08-09-2005 01:07 PM

The guitars sound great to me. The sustain surprised me - it was so long I thought you were using a pickup. Nice deep bass on that dropped D.

BTW - I love Bob Bennett too!

ljguitar 08-09-2005 01:22 PM

Thanks for asking...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Guyute
Interesting. I was going to mention (but then I got distracted), that your speaking voice sounds vaguely familiar....makes me figure you for a pretty solid tenor. Do you do much singing in your regular gigs? Or is it mostly just instrumentals?

Hi Guyute...
About half and half singing and playing. Actually till 4 years ago when I began to write and perform fingerstyle guitar solo pieces I had only been a great accompanist who fingerstyled. I had never done a solo fingerstyle piece before about 4 years ago.

I knew nothing about the wealth of the fingerstyling world until I bought a copy of Muriel Anderson's All Star Guitar Night Video.

I joined our local guitar society and took on the challenge of roughing out some 'familiar tunes' in simple fingerstyle format, then found some incredible inspirational from watching Laurence Juber, Ed Gerhard, Peppino Augistono, Muriel Anderson, etc. (I'd seen Phil Keaggy but he was primarily a singer who did fingerstyle until a few years ago).

I began to write and arrange with a bit more depth and now I have nearly enough solo fingerstyle material to do a project for my family and friends for the holidays.

Pigfarm 08-09-2005 05:16 PM

Well, I hope you will take into account a (2 month) newbie review!

It sounded beautiful. I couldn't even pick up that one was drop D tuned, and I can't even imagine in my head how your fingers and ears coordinated all of that music. All I know is that I listened to this track over and over again. The guitars sounded amazing.

The musical talent that is embodied in the folks here at AGF never ceases to amaze.

So in a newbie nutshell: I loved it. Thanks providing a dumb acoustic groupie like me more good music.

solarbean 08-09-2005 06:56 PM

Much better recording and playing than I could ever do. I will offer this up (for constructive purposes) ... my impression is that it was it was a bit on the bright side.

That aside... it was great. Going on the ipod. :)

Bern 08-09-2005 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lj guitar
Hi all...
My giggin' partner Mark and I are preparing to do some recording this fall, and are starting test recordings.

We are combining the test recording phase with a project to assist Michael Bashkin develop some clips of his guitars for his site, and we knocked this one together last evening in the studio with a pair of handbuilt Baskins. One is my personal OM cutaway the other a slightly larger model with Malaysian Blackwood/Italian Spruce.

Mark is playing this cross picking style (flat pick with fingers too). I am purely a fingerstylist.

Your comments, critiques, insights are invited (and appreciation too?!!).

http://www.larryjacobsen.com/bashkintest1-05.mp3

The second clip I offer is a test recording of my personal Bashkin, a 4 month old OM sized Myrtlewood/Italian Spruce, cutaway with fanned frets. I love the way the tone on this guitar is developing.

http://www.larryjacobsen.com/bashkintest3-05.mp3

Technical details:
The duet recording is a pair of Rode NT-3 mics (3/4'' diaphragm) placed at about 20'' from each guitar aimed at the neck/body joint. We sat across from each other with the mics between us so we could watch each other play and give eyebrow signals.

The solo piece (really just accompaniment to an old Bob Bennett piece Carpenter Gone Bad) is a two mic recording...one at the neck/body joint the other aimed at the sweet spot between the bridge and bottom edge of the guitar. Both were probably about 12'' away.

Signal chain is short...mic to tube preamp to MOTU interface. All were recorded without EQ, with just a touch of e-verb.

Good guitar music, well played !
These guitars sound very good, also.
Although, it's very subjective to listen to music, here is my assessment.
In the first test recording I was looking for more dynamics to distinguish parts of the song, somewhat like you demostrate in the second test recording when you demostrate the sound of the guitar. It's just something I feel. I think, at times, the mix could be improved to have one or the guitar come to live a little bit more. It's something I would play around with a bit. Also, I wonder if the mic setup you use for the second test would work for each guitar on the first test. I know to record two acoustic guitars isn't easy. I always go back to the Renbourn/Jansch recordings for reference.
The second test recording sounded very good to me, it kept me interested to end. Good playing, I sensed you really enjoyed playing it. It sounded alive.
I think, for people that might be interested in Bashkin guitars it's essential to present a spectrum of sounds, agressive and punchy, soft and sweet etc.
Phelps

ljguitar 08-09-2005 09:07 PM

experiments and tests in progress...
 
Hi ''Phelps''...
Thanks for the suggestions.

We are doing test recordings first to hash out such basics as where and how to improvie dynamic sections, and thinning out the playing of individual parts to feature the other player at that particular point in an arrangement.

Both Mark and I resist the idea of creating dynamics with the mixer when we are capable of better arranging and playing to bring them out.

We are both attending Muriel Anderson's workshop at Healdsburg titled Putting your heart in your fingers.

Your suggestions are duly noted and will be taken seriously...thanks.

We are also looking at different mic arrangements, and how to capture two guitarists at once. It is a challenge with not enough of one model of mic to do them both in stereo simultaneously.

We discussed recording them one at a time but agreed we play the duet piece better when we are playing together (there is a fair amount of improvising happening) so the sacrifice was in the direction of favoring spontaneity over production.

That said, I am saving my bucks for a pair of Neumann KM-184s for recording instruments. I'm not aware of any other medium size diaphragm mics (3/4'') which exceed the quality of the Rodes by enough to preclude us using them for this project and saving our bucks for the Neumanns.

We can not justify spending hundreds more $$ for not much improvement in quality on the way to purchasing some of the best mics.

Howard Emmerson shared about recording with large diaphragm mics, so we are going to do some experiments with those too. I own an AT 4033, an AKG 414, and a Shure KSM 44 (all large diaphragm). I read with care Howard's posts on mic distances and arrangements for experimental purposes.

In regards to the Baskin tests, we will have three to four of each guitar, and then the duet for reference. I hope to get hold of some of his clients in our region and have each come and record a short piece for his site to build a CD-r of his guitars for potential clients (and for the fun of hanging out with great guitarists with cool guitars).


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