The Acoustic Guitar Forum

The Acoustic Guitar Forum (https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/index.php)
-   Custom Shop (https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=38)
-   -   Binding and Rosette Ideas (https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603641)

mad5427 01-11-2021 11:00 AM

Binding and Rosette Ideas
 
Hello. I've been following this forum for many years and there is so much talent and so many dream guitars being made all the time.

I have a luthier working on a dream acoustic for me and I am starting to think about binding and rosettes. I am going to let him take the reigns and throw suggestions and I value his input, but it might be nice to come to him with more ideas.

The top will be carpathian spruce. The sides and back will be african blackwood. A very dark, tight grained set with some subtle brown within the black.

I love very minimal aesthetics but complex, especially with the rosettes. No shiny stuff like abalone, shell or anything. Wood is the star. I like wider rosettes and I've seen so many on here with kind of a fractured broken glass type look with different woods.

I love spalted maple and purple heart and very dark black like ebony.

With this info, do you have any suggestions for a binding pattern or some great example images of rosettes for inspiration? Any other woods that I may want to think about for the binding or such that I'm not looking at? The neck can either be one piece, 3 piece or 5 piece. It is going to be mahogany. Should I consider anything else? the strips in the neck I guess will match the binding. Not sure what would look best with the top and side woods.

He wants me to send ideas over and we can talk further, but I like being overwhelmed with knowledge so I learn what I don't know to ask or suggest or think about. I hope this makes sense and appreciate any and all suggestions.

colins 01-12-2021 04:05 AM

Congratulations on your upcoming build.

You mention spalted maple. Mike Baranik does amazing things with spalted woods and also uses African blackwood. He built me an ABW guitar and used jarrah (a reddish-coloured Australian hardwood) for the binding and other highlights, as I live in Australia. But to get a feel for a spalted binding on ABW check out this guitar that went through Dream Guitars some time back: https://www.dreamguitars.com/shop/ba...ce-161195.html

Another example is this one - https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=491256 Dark cocobolo back and sides, very similar in colour to ABW.

For rosettes the ďbroken glassĒ look is common on Kostal guitars. Another approach for using wood is dyed maple, which Jimmi Wingert uses to great effect. While not a rosette, this headstock inlay she did for one of my guitars shows what can be achieved with lots and lots of pieces of dyed maple.

https://i.imgur.com/V2E55Zh.jpg

TomB'sox 01-12-2021 08:30 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Here is a very quick answer for bindings, I really like the look of Snakewood on guitars with really dark back and sides.

Attachment 49807

Attachment 49808

Nemoman 01-12-2021 10:26 AM

Coco
 
Similar to Tom's thoughts above, I like the use of Cocobolo for binding and bevels when combined with dark woods...

https://i.imgur.com/9hCZilX.jpg?2

Erithon 01-12-2021 10:46 AM

Flamed Koa and flamed Maple look great as binding on guitars with dark wood.

For rosettes, check out Michael Bashkin's website. He has a whole gallery. And then take a look at guitars by Ray Kraut, Michi Matsuda, Mark Hatcher, and Tyler Robbins.

nootis 01-12-2021 11:23 AM

You mentioned Purple Heart. I too was looking for something similar for one of my builds, and decided on Camatillo. It's not nearly as well known, but it has purple hues. I think it has less contrast, blends better and is more "woody" than purpleheart...

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...3f062372_b.jpg

As for rosettes, perhaps your luthier might have a style or other rosettes that they've done? If it were me, I would try to work around those parameters and wouldn't do a stained glass rosette unless it was Jason Kostal doing it (that's just me though). There are so many cool and original rosettes out there that I would try for something original, yet something that would blend well with whatever else you have going on.

BTW, welcome to the Forum!

mad5427 01-12-2021 04:04 PM

Thank you all for the suggestions. I really appreciate it. I have pulled a bunch of images from all the recommended sources to give to the luthier and to have him compile to create his own thing.

I agree about not completely taking the stained glass from Kostal or some of the others. I think it an inspire something with a similar, wood focused, wide rosette. I like the binding options as well. This is going to be fun.

Steve Kinnaird 01-12-2021 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colins (Post 6602305)
...While not a rosette, this headstock inlay she did for one of my guitars shows what can be achieved with lots and lots of pieces of dyed maple.

https://i.imgur.com/V2E55Zh.jpg

Colin, thanks for this pic. It made my day, at least my artistic day.
What an original.

Steve

colins 01-13-2021 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Kinnaird (Post 6603252)
Colin, thanks for this pic. It made my day, at least my artistic day.
What an original.

Steve

Thanks Steve, nice that I can reciprocate after getting so much enjoyment from threads about your guitars.

Not to detract from the OP's thread, but whenever you want an inlay 'treat' you can also visit Jimmi's Instagram page. The video of the tiger inlay being put together is something special.

justonwo 01-13-2021 01:33 PM

For my tastes, I like either ebony binding or ivoroid when working with a guitar that has dark back and sides. I think when you mix too many wood colors in there, the overall aesthetic starts to lose its cohesiveness.

Here's ebony binding on my Carpathian/Madrose Brondel.

http://www.jus-tone.com/misc/brondel...ose_A2-045.jpg

On my LeGeyt, Burton actually bound the guitar with the same color as the back and sides, which I though looked pretty slick.

http://jus-tone.com/misc/legeyt/LeGe...on_CLM_015.jpg

One guitar Brondel built with ebony back and sides had snakewood binding. I thought that looked awesome, but it has to be paired with a minimalist rosette, I think. Definitely not a "broken glass" theme. I think if you want a stand-out rosette, you need to go with muted binding. The nicest stained/broken glass designs I've seen have come from Jason Kostal.

https://luthierscollection.com/wp-co...333d_-_1-1.jpg

https://luthierscollection.com/wp-co...el333f_-_1.jpg

alohachris 01-13-2021 04:11 PM

Rosettes Are the Domain of Luthiers - Let Them Create
 
Aloha,

Either blended or contrasting on the binding. Trust the luthier's suggestions. Curly Koa looks awesome as binding on anything, especially African blackwood. But so do bloodwood, cocobolo, ebony, snakewood, rosewood & maple. Purpleheart & vermillion turn brown pretty quickly (unless you process them with Armour-all - really).

Traditionally, the rosette brought two functions: 1) bringing stability to a fragile, open-grained, central area around the soundhole, 2) a place for the luthier to express himself.

Therefore, I suggest that you provide a possible theme, but allow the luthier to do his thing with your rosette!

Look at all the design talent in the pictures of this thread!!! Look! Today's luthiers are so amazingly skilled. Don't tell them how to design & make your rosette! Encourage & allow them to create it.

I guess with custom guitars costing more today than the houses I grew up in, that players feel they have the right to break with tradition.

Rosettes are the luthier's domain.

alohachris

PS: Isn't Jimmi Wingert's fine marquetry artwork on that peghead overleaf exquisite? Maybe the nicest design I've ever seen for that & so understated. Wow! -alohachris-

jt1 01-14-2021 04:40 AM

You really can't go wrong with vintage plastic and glitter. :)
https://www.walkerguitars.com/temp/2...116122_std.jpg

Tim McKnight 01-14-2021 08:17 AM

If you care to look, here are 5 pages capturing a few of the rosettes we have done.

https://mcknightguitars.com/more-info/options/rosettes/

jaymarsch 01-14-2021 10:43 AM

And to add to Tim's contribution and since Jimmi Wingert's work has been mentioned, Click link and scroll down to see some other examples of rosettes:

https://www.wingertguitars.com/detail-inlay_pl.htm

It is incredible that we have access to so many talented luthiers with varied aesthetic points of view. :)

Best,
Jayne

jaymarsch 01-14-2021 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim McKnight (Post 6604264)
If you care to look, here are 5 pages capturing a few of the rosettes we have done.

https://mcknightguitars.com/more-info/options/rosettes/

Not to derail the thread, but as alohahris mentioned the history of the rosette, I am curious if the rosette still has any function other than aesthetic at this point in the evolution of guitar construction. I had read that some luthiers feel that it plays a role in the vibration of the top and the air moving out of the sound hole and other's think it detracts. Do you have an opinion, Tim, based on your experience?

Best,
Jayne

IndianHillMike 01-14-2021 11:09 AM

I'll toss a couple more into the mix...

https://www.indianhillguitars.com/rosettes-gallery

Tim McKnight 01-14-2021 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaymarsch (Post 6604389)
Not to derail the thread, but as alohahris mentioned the history of the rosette, I am curious if the rosette still has any function other than aesthetic at this point in the evolution of guitar construction. I had read that some luthiers feel that it plays a role in the vibration of the top and the air moving out of the sound hole and other's think it detracts. Do you have an opinion, Tim, based on your experience?

Best,
Jayne




Hi Jane,

Thats a great question although I’ve not seen any tests or evidence of the rosette contributing to the tonal signature, it certainly is possible. John Greven used to say anything south of the X intersection contributes to tone and anything north supports structure and prevents the top from folding itself into the sound hole.

I do believe the rosette helps to seal the open end grain around the soundhole edges. Quartersawn wood exchanges moisture with the atmosphere through its end grain. The top and back’s perimeter binding and the top’s rosette help to seal those end grain exposure surfaces.

mad5427 01-14-2021 01:54 PM

I have taken all this into account. I sent him a bunch of images and talked about why I liked a few images of bindings. I did the same for the rosette so he could get a sense of the aesthetic that I like.

I appreciate the comment about the rosette being the luthier's domain and ability to show their style, etc. He now knows what I like and I'll let him take it from here.

Tim,

Your rosette page was really helpful. There are more than a handful that are exactly what I hope to get. There are others that are more complex than what I gravitate toward but are so extremely beautiful. Thanks for sharing and for the inspiration.

I bought a used guitar through a lefty forum some years ago and it turned out to be a prototype that this guy built for a model he was working on. It has no fancy details but sounded incredible. Unfortunately, the shape, size, fretboard width, etc. just wasn't perfect for me. But man, I loved the sound that came out of the instrument. I was thankfully in a position to sell that one to somebody I hope it is perfect for and commission him to build one that is perfect for me. I know it will sound good, the rest is just going to be the fun aesthetic choices.

Thanks again everybody. This is a lot of fun.

mhw48 01-14-2021 03:44 PM

2 Attachment(s)
On my African Blackwood Franklin Jumbo, Nick used figured maple for the bindings, set off with b/w/b purfling on the top, and thin b/w "filets" on the side

mad5427 01-14-2021 04:02 PM

Indian Hill Mike,

The rosettes at the top right, second row middle, and bottom row middle are all right in line with what I'm looking for. The background rosette on the bottom middle image is my favorite. That spalted wood with the two rings around it! Beautiful! I'm going to show him and see what he thinks. I would love something like that but with the two outer rings darker. I love that one so much.

colins 01-15-2021 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mad5427 (Post 6604551)
I have taken all this into account. I sent him a bunch of images and talked about why I liked a few images of bindings. I did the same for the rosette so he could get a sense of the aesthetic that I like.

I appreciate the comment about the rosette being the luthier's domain and ability to show their style, etc. He now knows what I like and I'll let him take it from here.

Tim,

Your rosette page was really helpful. There are more than a handful that are exactly what I hope to get. There are others that are more complex than what I gravitate toward but are so extremely beautiful. Thanks for sharing and for the inspiration.

I bought a used guitar through a lefty forum some years ago and it turned out to be a prototype that this guy built for a model he was working on. It has no fancy details but sounded incredible. Unfortunately, the shape, size, fretboard width, etc. just wasn't perfect for me. But man, I loved the sound that came out of the instrument. I was thankfully in a position to sell that one to somebody I hope it is perfect for and commission him to build one that is perfect for me. I know it will sound good, the rest is just going to be the fun aesthetic choices.

Thanks again everybody. This is a lot of fun.

Now we're all looking forward to you posting a few photos as the build progresses.....

IndianHillMike 01-15-2021 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mad5427 (Post 6604666)
Indian Hill Mike,

The rosettes at the top right, second row middle, and bottom row middle are all right in line with what I'm looking for. The background rosette on the bottom middle image is my favorite. That spalted wood with the two rings around it! Beautiful! I'm going to show him and see what he thinks. I would love something like that but with the two outer rings darker. I love that one so much.


Spalted rosettes sure can be pretty and it's nice to just let the wood speak for itself!

mad5427 01-15-2021 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colins (Post 6604938)
Now we're all looking forward to you posting a few photos as the build progresses.....

Once I get some photos, I'll share.

J-F C 01-16-2021 09:45 AM

Hope Iím not too late to the post these...

Fred Tellier built me an African blackwood baritone guitar, and we decided to stay away from flashy pearly stuff also. Ebony on the blackwood.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...423c634b_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...88ebb230_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...f6f8967f_c.jpg

Neil K Walk 01-16-2021 03:16 PM

As a former graphic artist and a sometime tinkerer on luthery with aging eyes I'd suggest that you keep it simple and not fall into the trap of going overly extravagant. I'm a firm proponent of "keeping it simple" and focusing on contrasts over ornamentation.

FWIW my long time albatros of a build is Carpathian spruce over East Indian rosewood. I opted to go with flamed maple binding but if I had to do it all over again I think I would have gone with plain maple because you can't really tell at a distance and the stuff tends to split. In contrast, my first was cedar over mahogany and I chose to go with rosewood binding to accent it.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...704d1e_c_d.jpg

As for the rosette, while I like the mozaic look it's a bit "busy" IMO. I find that I like radial rosettes and just a simple ring of zipflex:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...ee3588_c_d.jpg

Radial rosettes are still a lot of work though:

https://live.staticflickr.com/4259/3...8db47c_w_d.jpg

As for the headstock, again I like the wood to "be the bling"

https://live.staticflickr.com/4317/3...275f5f_c_d.jpg

though I do think that tuners make the headstock:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...d2d115_c_d.jpg

mad5427 01-19-2021 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-F C (Post 6606104)
Hope Iím not too late to the post these...

Fred Tellier built me an African blackwood baritone guitar, and we decided to stay away from flashy pearly stuff also. Ebony on the blackwood.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...423c634b_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...88ebb230_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...f6f8967f_c.jpg

I know most necks are typically mahogany. Is that a flamed maple neck for an acoustic? I love the look of that and thought of having him do that. Are there major reasons to not have a maple neck? Tonal differences?

J-F C 01-19-2021 03:34 PM

It is flamed maple. My maple SJ Fred built me also has a maple neck. For me, the maple option was an aesthetic demand/suggestion I made to Fred. If he had any reason not to do it, it would have told me, has we previously discussed the type of tone I was after, and that was more important.

Iím not en expert on tone wood and guitar building so all decisions regarding the choice of wood is made with the good advices of Fred.

He would certainly give a better answer to your question than I do. For what is worth, he is build me a third guitar (parlor) and the neck is flamed maple just like the one on my baritone.

mad5427 01-19-2021 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-F C (Post 6606104)
Hope Iím not too late to the post these...

Fred Tellier built me an African blackwood baritone guitar, and we decided to stay away from flashy pearly stuff also. Ebony on the blackwood.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...423c634b_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...88ebb230_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...f6f8967f_c.jpg

I know most necks are typically mahogany. Is that a flamed maple neck for an acoustic? I love the look of that and thought of having him do that. Are there major reasons to not have a maple neck? Tonal differences?

fetellier 01-19-2021 04:51 PM

Maple is a bit harder to shape than Mahogany, as far as strength since I use carbon bars to reinforce the neck it is not an issue. Jean pushes me to do different things but that is how we grow better.
Since I started building for others my philosophy has been to be open to all ideas from my clients and to communicate as much as possible.

Fred

J-F C 01-19-2021 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fetellier (Post 6609091)
Maple is a bit harder to shape than Mahogany, as far as strength since I use carbon bars to reinforce the neck it is not an issue. Jean pushes me to do different things but that is how we grow better.
Since I started building for others my philosophy has been to be open to all ideas from my clients and to communicate as much as possible.

Fred

Have you discovered encountered tonal issues with the maple that made you have to change your routine ?


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:39 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, The Acoustic Guitar Forum

vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=