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Kids Play Free 03-31-2011 12:46 AM

SA220 with Mixer Set-up
 
Hello, New first time poster here.

Long time player but new to running my own live sound. Just got a Fishman SA-220, been wanting to get a nice rig to be able to do small parties, events etc....many positive reviews on this forum helped make that decision.

I have a event soon (fund-raiser at a brew-pub style restaurant) with 2 other guys, both just acoustics and vocals. Got a Yamaha mixer (8 channel) to accomplish this with our multiple (6) inputs thinking it would be fairly simple and still sound good thru the Fishman.

So.....taking everything and test driving the new gear tonight I have found that the SA 220 sounds great, and was simple to set-up when I just put my guitar into channel 1 and the vocal mic into 2. No problems.

However, tried putting the guitar and mic through the mixer just to start getting used to it before I try it for real with the other guys and several inputs....and no luck with any sound.

Read and re-read the mixer manual, still couldn't get any sound to the SA220. I connected the mixer via the stereo output jacks (2) to the Solo-amp into channel 1. Checked mute button off etc....tried the Solo amp channel 2, tried the Aux input on the back of the solo amp. Tried the monitor outputs on the mixer. Slowly increased gain levels, gain and master volume on the SA-220 etc. A little bit puzzled, and thought someone on this forum may have a recommendation.

Does anyone use a SoloAmp with a mixer and am I missing something simple? Again, the guitar and amp worked fine directly to the SoloAmp: Taylor 710 with Fishman ellipse matrix blend and a Electrovoice nd767 dynamic mic.

The sales rep at GC where I bought the mixer seemed pretty knowledgeable and hooked me up with the cables he said I would need. Hopefully not a defective mixer or something.....I'm hoping it is just operator error at this point.

Thanks for any help,

Steve

Omanarama 03-31-2011 03:43 AM

What is the model number of your Yamaha? If I can download the manual I can probably give you detailed hook up instructions. I use a Mackie ProFX8 with mine all the time. I run from the mixer's L / R main outs to Channel 1 and 2 on the front of the amp. My mixer has both XLR and TRS main out's. I generally hook it up using XLR cables, but the TRS cables work, too.

BoB/335 03-31-2011 04:38 AM

I would bring it back to GC and ask them to show you how to hook it up to their display model of the SoloAmp. You would see first hand how to hook it up and be checking your board out at the same time.

I would love to hear a report of how this works out for a "fundraiser at a brew pub style restaurant".

Kids Play Free 03-31-2011 06:40 AM

Thanks for the quick replies....

The Yamaha model # is MG82cx.....I was actually debating between the Mackie ProFx8 and this Yamaha....seemed similar and the Yamaha was a little easier on the budget. But I could be tempted to switch.

Good idea on bringing the mixer back to GC to do a demo, I may do that later today after I fiddle with it some more.

Yes, this "fundraiser" sounds interesting doesn't it. They have a tranisiton area between the bar and the restaurant to play at. We will be following a jazz quartet who will go early. I am sure we will have a great time.....friendly crowd and the more beer they drink, the better we sound right?

Thanks again guys

Points East 03-31-2011 06:47 AM

Don't know if this will help but on the MG mixers you need to select either ST (stereo) or the group for each channel you want to go out. Should be a red button near each fader.

tdrake 03-31-2011 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Points East (Post 2566489)
Don't know if this will help but on the MG mixers you need to select either ST (stereo) or the group for each channel you want to go out. Should be a red button near each fader.

Yip, I have the same mixer (and sometimes use it with my SoloAmp...and most often at fundraisers...hey, parallel life...?) and all those switches and options certainly make it confusing to use at first. ...even after using it for a year or two I'll still occasionally find myself scratching my head.

Taking it back to GC makes good sense, but also try just hooking it up to some other random source (home stereo, guitar amp, whatever) to make sure you're getting a signal out.

Points East 03-31-2011 07:53 AM

My bad. The 82cx doesn't have the stereo or group selection. This should be fairly straightforward. Assuming you connect your guitars to the Line input and your mics to the mic input you need to set the input gain (they have a dark square mark on the dial that should put you in the ballpark), set the channel level (at the bottom of each channel, there's an arrow on the dial here) and set the stereo output (lower right corner). You should have signal out of the stereo connections that can go to your sa220 channel 1 and channel 2. Alternatively, you can plug the 82cx stereo out into the ch 1 and ch 2 returns.

If this doesn't work I would take it back to GC and have them set it up and show you.

Kids Play Free 03-31-2011 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Points East (Post 2566561)
My bad. The 82cx doesn't have the stereo or group selection. This should be fairly straightforward. Assuming you connect your guitars to the Line input and your mics to the mic input you need to set the input gain (they have a dark square mark on the dial that should put you in the ballpark), set the channel level (at the bottom of each channel, there's an arrow on the dial here) and set the stereo output (lower right corner). You should have signal out of the stereo connections that can go to your sa220 channel 1 and channel 2. Alternatively, you can plug the 82cx stereo out into the ch 1 and ch 2 returns.

If this doesn't work I would take it back to GC and have them set it up and show you.

Maybe this is the problem: The cable I am using to connect the mixer to the Fishman is a 2 to 1 jack set-up..(Not sure if I am using correct terminology). Two jacks (L,R...black and red) for the mixer boards stereo output jacks. the other end the cables are merged into 1 line jack, which I initially connected to the Solo-amp line 1. If I need a new cable to go into both Channel's 1 and 2 on the Soloamp then that should be easy.

Steve

Points East 03-31-2011 08:47 AM

Steve,

That might be the problem. The sa220 inputs are mono, not stereo, although I would expect to hear something.

I'd definitely try it with two cables.

Keith

MikeTX 03-31-2011 08:49 AM

... JUST my thought and approach, but -I- would PAN all instruments 100% left and vocals 100% right, then send the LEFT Main Out XLR into SA Channel 1 and RIGHT Main Out XLR into SA Channel 2 - SEPARATE XLR cables. That way you can use the EQ & Feedback controls on the SoloAmp. The GREAT sound and tone that the SoloAmp provides for acoustic guitar is significant, I would want to take advantage of that. Yes, mixers have EQ and maybe FX too, but they are not as special for acoustic as the Fishman is.

Best luck - Mike

Kids Play Free 03-31-2011 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Points East (Post 2566642)
Steve,

That might be the problem. The sa220 inputs are mono, not stereo, although I would expect to hear something.

I'd definitely try it with two cables.

Keith

Well, Partial Success and yes we are on the right track.....I have managed to get sound from the mixer to the Soloamp but as you said, inputs are mono, and using only 1 channel I am therefore restricted to Mono with my current cables.

So I believe that 2 cords going to the 2 channels on the Soloamp is the next trick..guess the guy who set me up at GC over looked that, but no big deal, sounds like an easy fix.

BTW: Started doing this late at night while trying to not wake up the rest of the house probably had something to do with my problem:)

Thanks for the help

Steve

Kids Play Free 03-31-2011 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeTX (Post 2566645)
... JUST my thought and approach, but -I- would PAN all instruments 100% left and vocals 100% right, then send the LEFT Main Out XLR into SA Channel 1 and RIGHT Main Out XLR into SA Channel 2 - SEPARATE XLR cables. That way you can use the EQ & Feedback controls on the SoloAmp. The GREAT sound and tone that the SoloAmp provides for acoustic guitar is significant, I would want to take advantage of that. Yes, mixers have EQ and maybe FX too, but they are not as special for acoustic as the Fishman is.

Best luck - Mike

Mike, thanks for the advice, and once I get the proper cables will definitely try this approach. The functions and workings of the board are starting to get a little clearer for me .....
I agree, the Fishman sounds so nice on it's own and it's so simple, I am really happy I got it. Obviously feel like I am in a little over my head with trying to arrange this trio combo and get it to sound OK thus the need for the mixer....The restaurant we are doing this at has no house PA, and it will be somewhat loud so we do need a little amplification.

I hope to get comfortable with this thing soon, I just want to start playing!:)

Very glad I chimed in on this forum, a wealth of info and experience.

LDBecker 03-31-2011 09:58 AM

This is such a helpful place! Mixer suggestions?
 
Just wanted to chime in, too... I also have a Fishman Solo 220 and use it with my Taylor NS24ce and a vocal mic (in church), but can easily easily forsee needing it to include other players and singers.

I JUST got a Yamaha MG166CX - 16 channels for larger portable PA (Mackie SRM450's and a Mackie 1801 sub - woof!), and I agree about the confusing setup on the Yamaha mixers. I GET that you have to select a group or "stereo" for each channel, but it sure threw me for a minute. I like the built-in compressor on the first 6 vocal channels.

I was REALLY confused by trying to get signal to show on the meters. If you have a PFL button pressed on a channel that has no signal, it will show nothing on the meter. Another confusion I had with the Yamaha was that, unlike some mixers I've used (all Mackie), there isn't a signal light on each channel. You can't tell what mic is active. What's up with that?

Anyway... the mixer sounds good. Like the compressors on the channels - wish there were signal lights on each channel. HARD to sort out what mic is doing what when you're in a live, fluid situation. The price was really good on the mixer, though (on sale at GC, with an additional email $20 coupon)... Looking for other mixer options in the 12-16 channel range. Anything else out there with compressors on the mic channels?

Thanks,

Larry

El Conquistador 03-31-2011 10:54 AM

I have always had excellent response and service from Fishman when I have had questions about my SA220. They love to talk about their products.

Here is the number: 978-988-9199. A receptionist will answer, then, just ask for Tech Help.

Steve

JackB1 12-24-2018 09:10 PM

Ok I have a similar situation. I just got a SA220 for one guitar and one mic, which works great. However I want to start hosting open mics and you sometimes get duos or even three musicians. Can someone recommend a small simple mixer to use in conjunction with the SA220 and briefly explain how I would hook it up? Ive never run anything other than the SA220 before. Do I input everything into the mixer and then all those outputs somehow go into the two SA220 inputs?

Guitaurman 12-24-2018 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1 (Post 5928518)
Ok I have a similar situation. I just got a SA220 for one guitar and one mic, which works great. However I want to start hosting open mics and you sometimes get duos or even three musicians. Can someone recommend a small simple mixer to use in conjunction with the SA220 and briefly explain how I would hook it up? I’ve never run anything other than the SA220 before. Do I input everything into the mixer and then all those outputs somehow go into the two SA220 inputs?

I sometimes run my Yamaha MG 10XU into my Fishman SA 330. It's so simple to do. Just make sure that your mixer's pan controls on each channel are straight up. Then run an XLR (mic cable) from either the left or right output of the mixer, into the Monitor In input in back of the unit. It is the only female input in the back, so it's the only place the cable will fit. You control the output of the Fishman with the Monitor in control on the front of the unit. This bypasses the preamps and mixer on the Fishman,, so you treat it like a powered speaker and use your mixer's preamps, EQ, and effects.

BT55 12-24-2018 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guitaurman (Post 5928529)
I sometimes run my Yamaha MG 10XU into my Fishman SA 330. It's so simple to do. Just make sure that your mixer's pan controls on each channel are straight up. Then run an XLR (mic cable) from either the left or right output of the mixer, into the Monitor In input in back of the unit. It is the only female input in the back, so it's the only place the cable will fit. You control the output of the Fishman with the Monitor in control on the front of the unit. This bypasses the preamps and mixer on the Fishman,, so you treat it like a powered speaker and use your mixer's preamps, EQ, and effects.



You can use an XLR Y cable from the mixers L/R output channels so that if any of the pan controls are set incorrectly the signal to the speakers are not affected.

Guitaurman 12-24-2018 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BT55 (Post 5928556)
You can use an XLR Y cable from the mixers L/R output channels so that if any of the pan controls are set incorrectly the signal to the speakers are not affected.

You can, but why bother with a special cable. If the pan is set wrong you'll know it by the lack of signal, and then just turn the pan knob to straight up or pan to the side that your sending to the Fishstick. It's no different than sending the mixers output to a powered speaker. No need to make it more complicated than it has to be. The Fishman is not stereo so either the left or right output from the mixer will do the job of feeding the amp in the speaker.

The Kid! 12-25-2018 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1 (Post 5928518)
Can someone recommend a small simple mixer to use in conjunction with the SA220 and briefly explain how I would hook it up? I’ve never run anything other than the SA220 before. Do I input everything into the mixer and then all those outputs somehow go into the two SA220 inputs?

The Soundcraft EFX8 or EFX12 mixers are fantastic. I'd chose which one based on how many channels you think you'll need, then double it. You always end up using more channels at some point. I use the EFX8 for Solo/Duo/Trio gigs.

Run everything through the mixer first, then run out of the mixer to the XLR input of either channel 1 or channel 2 of the SA220. There is no need to run into both channels of the SA220, and it might even cause issues. Edit: you can bypass the Fishman Pre's by running into the monitor in. That should work better.

The EFX8 and EFX12 have great EQ, Pre's, and FX. Set the EQ on the SA220 flat as you'll have more control at the mixer. High/Mid (with sweeps)/Low vs. just High/Mid/Low on the Fishman.

With a mixer, you can place the SA220 wherever it makes the most sense in the room, and have the board within reach to make any adjustments.

If you can, find a good sound person to teach you how to properly use a mixer. It will be worth its weight in gold. Ask them about gain staging, EQ, how to use negative EQ, mid sweeps, and FX. Have them teach you on your gear preferably in an empty venue if you can get access.

They probably won't charge you much if they don't have to haul anything, and you will get a great hands on experience. Best of luck with your setup!

JackB1 12-25-2018 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Kid! (Post 5928583)
The Soundcraft EFX8 or EFX12 mixers are fantastic. I'd chose which one based on how many channels you think you'll need, then double it. You always end up using more channels at some point. I use the EFX8 for Solo/Duo/Trio gigs.

Run everything through the mixer first, then run out of the mixer to the XLR input of either channel 1 or channel 2 of the SA220. There is no need to run into both channels of the SA220, and it might even cause issues. Edit: you can bypass the Fishman Pre's by running into the monitor in. That should work better.

The EFX8 and EFX12 have great EQ, Pre's, and FX. Set the EQ on the SA220 flat as you'll have more control at the mixer. High/Mid (with sweeps)/Low vs. just High/Mid/Low on the Fishman.

With a mixer, you can place the SA220 wherever it makes the most sense in the room, and have the board within reach to make any adjustments.

If you can, find a good sound person to teach you how to properly use a mixer. It will be worth its weight in gold. Ask them about gain staging, EQ, how to use negative EQ, mid sweeps, and FX. Have them teach you on your gear preferably in an empty venue if you can get access.

They probably won't charge you much if they don't have to haul anything, and you will get a great hands on experience. Best of luck with your setup!

Those soundcraft mixers look nice but are a little more than I want to spend right now. I just need something simple so I can accept one or 2 more mics and a couple more instruments. Lets say I have 2 people singing and 2 guitars...how would I hook all that up with the Fishman system and a small mixer?

JackB1 12-25-2018 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guitaurman (Post 5928529)
I sometimes run my Yamaha MG 10XU into my Fishman SA 330. It's so simple to do. Just make sure that your mixer's pan controls on each channel are straight up. Then run an XLR (mic cable) from either the left or right output of the mixer, into the Monitor In input in back of the unit. It is the only female input in the back, so it's the only place the cable will fit. You control the output of the Fishman with the Monitor in control on the front of the unit. This bypasses the preamps and mixer on the Fishman,, so you treat it like a powered speaker and use your mixer's preamps, EQ, and effects.

OK I think I understand that. But what if I get a simple mixer without any reverb or effects and I want to use the reverb from the Fishman? IN order to use the Fishman's effects, would I need to go out of the mixer and into one of the 2 main channels on the Fishman? Could I put all the mics on the LEFT channel of the mixer and all the guitars on the RIGHT channel and then plug them into channels 1 and 2 of the Fishman? That way I could EQ the vocals and guitars separately on the Fishman.

JackB1 12-25-2018 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BT55 (Post 5928556)
You can use an XLR Y cable from the mixers L/R output channels so that if any of the pan controls are set incorrectly the signal to the speakers are not affected.

What are "pan" controls? Is that just a right or left balance? Why would they be set incorrectly?

So you are saying to combine both L & R channel outputs from the mixer into one? And then feed that one output into the Fishman and basically just use the Fishman as a speaker? That would be fine as long as the mixer has effects like reverb built in. Ideally I would like to keep things simple and just add the capability of 2 or 3 more inputs to the Fishman.

Guitaurman 12-25-2018 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1 (Post 5928803)
What are "pan" controls? Is that just a right or left balance? Why would they be set incorrectly?

So you are saying to combine both L & R channel outputs from the mixer into one? And then feed that one output into the Fishman and basically just use the Fishman as a speaker? That would be fine as long as the mixer has effects like reverb built in. Ideally I would like to keep things simple and just add the capability of 2 or 3 more inputs to the Fishman.

If you have a stereo mixer, and most are stereo, you'll have a "pan" control knob on each channel. That sends the output of that channel to either right or left output of the mixer. You could send your vocals to just the left speaker if you wanted. Since you are just running "mono" into one speaker, you can just leave the pan control straight up at 12:00 o'clock.

For best results in your set up, just run either of the mixers outputs into the "monitor in" on the back side of the Fishman. You can control overall volume with the 'Monitor in" on the top right of the front panel.

You don't need Y cables or to plug into the input channels 1 & 2 on the front. This way all the e q and volume is set at the mixer as long as the monitor in volume is set high enough. The master volume on the front won't control volume, only the Monitor in will control that, because you are bypassing the Fishman's integrated mixer.

In the event that you need more channels, you could use inputs 1&2 on the front panel. They would be separate from the mixer plugged into the back. You could use the Fishman's gain, eq, and master volume for those two channels with no ill effect on the mix from the external mixer. The master volume will only control the mix from channels 1 & 2 on the front panel. It will have no effect on the mix from the external mixer plugged into the back.

The Kid! 12-25-2018 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1 (Post 5928789)
Those soundcraft mixers look nice but are a little more than I want to spend right now. I just need something simple so I can accept one or 2 more mics and a couple more instruments. Lets say I have 2 people singing and 2 guitars...how would I hook all that up with the Fishman system and a small mixer?

What is your budget?

I got my EFX8 used for $250 shipped and it was in brand new condition. Any mixer with decent pre's and mid sweeps will be at least that much. Search for used deals in your area and online.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1 (Post 5928803)
What are "pan" controls? Is that just a right or left balance? Why would they be set incorrectly?

Definitely find a sound guy and buy him a few beers to show you how to properly run your gear. It will be worth it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1 (Post 5928803)
So you are saying to combine both L & R channel outputs from the mixer into one?

Absolutely not. Just use either the right or the left. You have one SA220, so you're only running mono anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1 (Post 5928803)
basically just use the Fishman as a speaker?

Yes

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1 (Post 5928803)
That would be fine as long as the mixer has effects like reverb built in.

Yes. Many do have that capability.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1 (Post 5928803)
Ideally I would like to keep things simple and just add the capability of 2 or 3 more inputs to the Fishman.

Get a mixer with Mid Sweeps, FX, and at least 4 (preferably 8) XLR channels. You'll need more channels at some point. The EFX8 is about as compact as it gets for a small format analog mixer and it has 8 XLR channels. I'd say to up your budget a little and look for a used deal on one.

Based on your questions, I can't stress finding a local sound guy to help you get started, enough. It will help you immensely and you can get some hands on experience in a real world situation.

Not judging, just trying to get you the best possible outcome in the least amount of time.

Monsum 12-25-2018 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1 (Post 5928518)
Ok I have a similar situation. I just got a SA220 for one guitar and one mic, which works great. However I want to start hosting open mics and you sometimes get duos or even three musicians. Can someone recommend a small simple mixer to use in conjunction with the SA220 and briefly explain how I would hook it up? Ive never run anything other than the SA220 before. Do I input everything into the mixer and then all those outputs somehow go into the two SA220 inputs?

I was going to suggest any Soundcraft mixer which generally have a good reputation, but if it's still more you wanted to spend, have a look at Behringer mixers such as a Behringer Xenyx 1202FX ($99).
We used Behringer mixers in our church and they can do the job just fine.

Guitaurman 12-25-2018 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1 (Post 5928797)
OK I think I understand that. But what if I get a simple mixer without any reverb or effects and I want to use the reverb from the Fishman? IN order to use the Fishman's effects, would I need to go out of the mixer and into one of the 2 main channels on the Fishman? Could I put all the mics on the LEFT channel of the mixer and all the guitars on the RIGHT channel and then plug them into channels 1 and 2 of the Fishman? That way I could EQ the vocals and guitars separately on the Fishman.

Simply put, if you try to send a line level signal to the Fishman's preamp inputs (Channel's 1 & 2 on the front) it will result in those preamps being overdriven even with the pad engaged. At best you will get a very distorted sound. If you increase any output from the mixer or gain on the Fishman, you'll get howling feedback! The monitor in, input in back is designed for a line level signal. Many lower priced mixers have effects.

I've always found that if you use equipment was designed to be used you don't have problems. If you try to cut corners or take shortcuts problems arise. You need a mixer with effects to do what you plan on doing and send it into the Mon send. Why fight it?

lkingston 12-25-2018 08:22 PM

It's a pretty easy thing to put an inline XLR pad between the mixer line level output and another mixer mic level input. Usually a 30db pad is about right.

Guitaurman 12-25-2018 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lkingston (Post 5929257)
It's a pretty easy thing to put an inline XLR pad between the mixer line level output and another mixer mic level input. Usually a 30db pad is about right.

Well the 10dB Fishman's pad is not near enough, but realistically why do that? He's simply trying to use a mixer with his SA 220 and have reverb. The extra cost of a mixer with effects is minimal as opposed to one without. Patching in an after market attenuator and cable will add to the cost and detract from the ease of set up. The Unit is set up to accept line level signals already, why add extra unnecessary steps to plug in the mixer where it doesn't belong? I really don't care how he does it, but if it were me, and I have already successfully done what he's attempting, I'd just bite the bullet and get a mixer with effects and plug it into the Monitor in. He is going to buy one anyway. The bonus is he'd have a lot more options for effects with the mixer's effects than the Fishman's reverb.

JackB1 12-26-2018 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guitaurman (Post 5929317)
Well the 10dB Fishman's pad is not near enough, but realistically why do that? He's simply trying to use a mixer with his SA 220 and have reverb. The extra cost of a mixer with effects is minimal as opposed to one without. Patching in an after market attenuator and cable will add to the cost and detract from the ease of set up. The Unit is set up to accept line level signals already, why add extra unnecessary steps to plug in the mixer where it doesn't belong? I really don't care how he does it, but if it were me, and I have already successfully done what he's attempting, I'd just bite the bullet and get a mixer with effects and plug it into the Monitor in. He is going to buy one anyway. The bonus is he'd have a lot more options for effects with the mixer's effects than the Fishman's reverb.

I think this is a good plan and sounds simple enough. Thanks!
Can you recommend a mixer with effects for under $150?

The Kid! 12-26-2018 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1 (Post 5929682)
I think this is a good plan and sounds simple enough. Thanks!
Can you recommend a mixer with effects for under $150?

Used Allen & Heath Zed10FX


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