Questions on improving intonation (tone)
 

Hey I got some questions on improving intonation, the idea is I don't wish to do anything too drastic as to stray from traditional lutherie per say..

The biggest thing I've found is using a zero fret or just having a nut cut to the height of the frets, this improves the intonation in the open position greatly since the strings don't need to travel as far to be fretted.

If the open strings are intonated "perfectly" then the focus from here is on fretted strings and adjusting the bridge thereof, my question is, I play around the 5th fret and open position far more than I ever use the 12th fret area, should I perhaps consider intonation from a place other than the 12th fret, and when I intonate should I fret the string or use the harmonic? I kind of think to fret the string as I never actually play harmonics, when I play I fret.

Also does narrow fret wire (horizontally) improve things?


Thank you

Might be worth you doing some research on this as your question raises a few questions about your understanding of intonation as you said your strings were intonated perfectly when open.

The general idea is that once you have your strings in tune (open) you want it to play as close as possible on the fretted notes. When you fret at the 12th and measure the tone it may be slightly sharp or flat, the primary cause is the bend in the string adding tension. You would then have to look at the bridge and change the saddle location forwards if its flat or backwards if its sharp. (Easy if Electric)

If its intoned correctly at the 12th then the 5th frets should be pretty good too.

Intonation is related to the ability of an instrument to achieve the desired pitches. The open strings don’t have “intonation” per se since one can alter the tension on the open string to achieve any desired pitch. The issue of intonation is as you suggest about pitches relative to the open strings.

Ideally, you’d like the intonation to be within acceptable variation throughout the full range of the instrument. That would include around the 12th fret and fifth frets. It shouldn’t be necessary to sacrifice one position for the other. However, if you play primarily in one location, you can set up he intonation to favour that location.

To make a long story short, the harmonics belong to just (Pythagorean tuning) while the fretted notes are designed to belong to equal temperament. The only places where the pitches are the same are at the unison and octaves. Thus, only use harmonics that are unisons or octaves of the open string being intonated, else you’re mixing apples and oranges and will be chasing your tail intonation wise. The fretted notes should be in tune. Harmonics can be used as a standard to which to compare the pitch of the fretted notes.

Narrower frets place the defining location of the fretted vibrating string closer to the Center of the fret, the position defining the location of the frets. If all of the frets are of the same width, shortening each fretted vibrating string equally, the intonation setup should compensate for that.

On the subject of the zero fret - I personally think it came into play as way to lower the cost of building - just add and dress one fret and wack in a pre-cut nut for string spacing alone, job done. It certainly doesn't intonate better than a well cut nut, and arguably adjusting the nut to correctly intonate the lower frets is a worthwhile endeavor.

Totally agree with that statement

The problem as I see it is, people seem to lack the ability to cut a nut well these days. So many story’s of high nuts, bad intonation and so forth almost makes the zero fret for a player the nut of choice.

Steve

What I am running into lately, for reasons I don't quite understand, is I cut a nut perfect, it's perfect for 6 months, then all of sudden I have first fret buzzes on one string. It goes away if I add a little relief, so maybe my insistence on a flat fretboard is getting challenged.. I'm switching to add .005"-ish relief, and I'll re-evaluate in six months, I guess.

Relief should not have any affect on the nut unless of course you are talking about negative or backwards relief but who would ever want that? ;)

I guess in production settings the zero fret could be a cost cutter but I have made a few guitars with zero frets and they didn't save me any time. In fact, the fact that you have to install one more fret AND still cut a nut might actually take more time.

>> What I am running into lately, for reasons I don't quite understand, is I cut a nut perfect ...

Did you cut the nut slots after you set relief or with no relief?

I set up my guitar with minimal relief, 5-10 mils, and then cut the nut slots, thinking that the order of those two operations were interchangeable. Then a year later, I tried setting the relief almost flat, 1-2 mils, and found that the second string open was buzzing badly.

My new setup order is, with no relief, level frets, cut nut slots, set minimal relief, intonate.

What were the weather conditions around that 6mth period?
Had you recently changes the strings to a different gauge?
Did you check the fret height in relation to the other frets?
Perhaps that fret only needed a light tap to re-seat it properly?

Extreme weather changes can dry out the wood of the fret board, and some frets can become loose.

Then you cut the nut slot too low. ;)

And I have seen this happen before too and in fact I used to think the same way, that the order of operations in a set up was important to getting the nut right. But it's not.

Think of it this way, If you had a zero fret which was dressed to the same height as the rest of them and then adjust the relief flatter would you expect the strings to then buzz on the first fret? The nut should be cut to the exact same height as the frets, though I often times keep the bass strings just a hair higher for those people who really like to bang on open chords.

So it doesn't matter whether you adjust the saddle height first, the relief or anything else, if the nut slots are the same height as the frets then you are set.

Cutting the nut height has nothing to do with relief, saddle height, 12th fret height, it is measured and cut independent of everything else

Steve

Lots of good comments here, and the same stuff gets stated every time intonation is mentioned. (Pay particular attention to anything Charles Tauber posts...)

I have always thought that most any Taylor I have played was particularly good at intonating well. A recent comment by Bob Taylor in his Wood and Steel publication fielded a question by a reader who wanted to know about Taylor's nut location. Bob Taylor stated that from the earliest days the Taylors were slotted with a gang saw that included the nut position, which was trimmed off later. This resulted in the actual nut location being positioned at where the "front" of the nut slot would have been, making their nut position effectively forward shifted by one half the distance of the fret slot width. Taylor said that is still the case today and he feels it contributes to the Taylor's intonation. It's worthy of consideration...

Years ago I wrote a bit about intonation perception as it relates to equal temperament; you might find it interesting.

http://web.archive.org/web/201603282...tionTips3.html

I agree. For your amusement here is some local talent from a shop in my area. This was considered complete when the client took delivery of it. This shop claims to have done work for people like Zakk Wylde. They charged the client 450$ for the full refret and the new nut.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1935/...54c11e487e.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1926/...9e9d421939.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1950/...06bfd7faf3.jpg

>> So it doesn't matter whether you adjust the saddle height first, the relief or anything else, if the nut slots are the same height as the frets then you are set.

>> Cutting the nut height has nothing to do with relief, saddle height, 12th fret height, it is measured and cut independent of everything else

I cut the slot with 5-10 mils of relief and there was no buzzing. Then I reduce the amount of relief and the string buzzes. I set the relief back to the original amount and the buzzing is gone. So how can you both claim that the order of cutting the slots and setting relief doesn't matter?

Let me try a geometrical argument as well. You both say to just set the nut slot height to the plane of the fret tops. That's fine if the neck is straight, i.e. no relief. But when you add relief, you are bowing the neck. There is no fret plane anymore and the tangent created by frets 1 and 2 will intersect the nut at a point lower than when the neck was straight.

That shouldn't happen, if you cut the nut slots FIRST with the neck dead atraight, THEN add relief. Otherwise you're chasing your tail.