pickup comparison: K&K vs. Schatten HFN in one and the same guitar
 

Hi fellows,

widely discussed here at AGF: Which SBT should be the right one in one particular guitar.
I took the chance:Right before deinstalling the K&K from my vintage Martin 0-17 I recorded it - and did the same some 40 minutes later, after installing a Schatten HFN.
I like K&K in some of my instruments, but never could like the amplified sound in this old Martin box. Knowing the different sonic qualities of Schatten, K&K, Dazzo and UltraTonic very well, I decided to give the Schatten a try. Dazzo and UltraTonic - both would have been great choices - are hard to get here in Germany.
Both pickups are the passive kind, so I used the RedEye preamp with the treble knob set to 12 0'clock.
No EQ, reverb, compression ... was used. Recorded directly to DAW (Logic Audio, RME Fireface interface)
I would love to hear what you think about the result.

https://youtu.be/bdB7NzNo0F4

Both sound really good IMO but the Schatten sounds incredible in this comparison. This is the first time where I thought the HFN had more than enough bass. It's a great match!

The HFN is such a frustration for me because I love the tone and the concept but I just can't get the bass out of it that I need. I wanted to pair it with a UST and literally blend in about 10% of the UST to get some low end but the HFN occupies the same space where the wire comes out of the bottom of the saddle slot. I really want to experiment more as I believe the HFN might be the best sounding pickup available, the string balance is just annoying.

This is the beauty of Dazzo. Get the one perfect for your guitar and be done with it.

I am sure it’s fine but the beauty of the HFN is the putty/tape install. I also don’t feel 100% comfortable gluing in a Dazzo and finding out that the placement is just okay tonally. At least with the K&k there’s a fairly consistent jig to use.

Nice demo.

The HFN sounds so much closer to the microphone sound than the K+K. A little TondeDexter or other IR would close that gap.

The K+K has that typical midrange bump that people love or hate (I detest it). Nevertheless, it sounds pretty different from the miked signal.

(Petty1818: Dazzo makes a range of pickups with varying bass response. You might talk with Teddy Randazzo, he will probably recommend a specific model for your guitar AND the bass response you desire.)

It proves to me (again) that pickups are so guitar dependent.
Both your samples sound very natural although in a different way.
But the same pickups might not sound as good as this even if acoustically a guitar they are installed in is fine.

Why pay triple the price for a Dazzo that you have to epoxy in place when I don't think it sounds any better, especially for the price difference. I've been getting the best plugged in sound I ever had with the HFN.

I like the HFN best and as Petty 1818 said the bass was nice and present. I have the HFN installed in two guitars and have been super pleased with the sound. I get very good bass response out of both guitars as well. Your Martin sounds fabulous, very well rounded sound for a small instrument. Thanks for doing that comparison

Dazzo is $225 USD. Schatten is $112 USD. My math says that is double not triple.:)

I use both, but in my highest quality instruments I specify Dazzo. I can hear the difference AND it is worth it to me for specific cases.

Since I have my pickups professionally (and permanently) installed, epoxy vs. tape vs. putty isn't an issue (for me).

I think for the majority of players, Schatten is an excellent choice for those looking for a more mic-like tone than a K+K. The price is super for what you get.

We Canadians always have to pay a lot more! A Dazzo would definitely be over $300 and I can get the HFN for close to $100.

I do wonder though, with the Tonedexter as an option, does the price increase to a Dazzo make as much sense anymore? As good as it sounds, it will never sound as mic like as a K&k or HFN with a wavemap.

Petty pretty much answered already but I'll elaborate. The last HFN I bought I paid $100 CAD + free shipping. A Dazzo for me would be $309 CAD with current exchange rates and probably shipping and import charges on top of that. I guess it would be double for some and more than triple for others. The biggest appeal of the HFN to me is no glue or epoxy and it sounds great and is easy to install/remove. I never heard a Dazzo in person but I have to admit the online demos I watched weren't impressive even taking into account YouTube compression. I don't doubt it's a good pickup, people here speak very highly of them. I vowed after my last K&K experience years ago that I would never use a permanent install medium like super glue or epoxy. YMMV.

That's news to me, since I own all three pickups and a ToneDexter. :lol:

I think we are in more agreement than disagreement. I think the HFN is the best bang for the buck SBT available, and the best choice for MOST guitarists looking for an SBT.

Good point that the price difference can vary a lot depending on location.

My main point was that there are some people and situations where paying more is justified and even necessary. Leaving aside collectors, there are people who do not see/hear ANY advantage in paying more than $1000 for a guitar, and then others who see (and require) the value in a 3K or 6K instrument.

Who is right? Both points of view, of course.

Oh absolutely. I used to chime in on all those "what pickup should I get" threads but eventually gave it up. One lowly guy recommending a HFN vs 20 suggesting a K&K. Nothing wrong with those I've used them but found them frustrating to EQ. The HFN was the first pickup to give me the "guitar only louder" with just the coloring from an acoustic amp. I certainly put the Dazzo in the same category based on what people say here in that it's not popular like the HFN compared to the K&K.

Another Schatten fanboy here - after years of searching and spending money. I installed 4 of them meanwhile and while I wasn't that successful that my instals make my guitars sound completely naturall I'm very happy with the sound. And the installation is incredible easy as is the deinstallation. With the next string change the pickup can be located a little different till you are happy with the sound.

Gordon,

I have only tried one Dazzo in a Lowden Jumbo. It was so microphonic and picked up human chatting voice through it that it was unusuable to us. Might have been a defective unit. Ever had this problem?

I've tried almost all SBT pickups and 'generally' settle on the HFN now days, but I know there are many great options now days.

No I have not. You may have had a defective pickup. Do you remember what type? I use a 70s which gives the correct amount of bass response for my guitars.

Seems like every pickup has some issues with some guitars and/or installs. Petty1818 has been trying to get the HFN to work, but unable so far to get adequate bass. Most others are able to achieve the sound they want.

In my opinion the Dazzo is superior to the Schatten HFN when it comes to close reproduction of the true acoustic sound.
Yes, Schatten HFN is less expensive and installation is very simple and easy to remove. But it can lack some low end and it can sound overly bright. So gaining a lot of experience with the different SBTs available (Trance Amulet is not available here in Germany) in very different guitars I started learning or suggesting which brand of SBT could be the right one in one particular guitar. The vintage Martin 0-17 I used in the vid is a bit boxy sounding and not overly bright. So I opted for the Schatten, and I would say it is a good match.
When I got my new Pre-War D28 guitar (lightly built and very responsive) some months ago I managed to get a pair of Dazzo wooden housing pickups with slightly reduced bass response, and they sound great. Had Dazzo 70s in my huge sounding Merrill C28 and Merrill OM18, and both guitars sounded overly boomy. Same pickup sounds great in my Merrill OM28 - best amplified sound I ever had.
So when it comes to the definite solution, I always would contact Teddy Randazzo for his advice on the particular guitar.

Yeah, agreed, we must have. We had 70s and Teddy was great about offering for us to send him the guitar, but it wasn't worth the $200+ return shipping.

He's a top operator to be sure. I'll have to try them again sometime.

I have a Dazzo lying around and have at times been tempted to install it. My experiences with the HFN and Amulet have definitely played a role in stopping me. It can be such an experiment to get it right and when you are working with epoxy/glue, it makes it even more daunting. I do wonder if the epoxy that Teddy recommends has the same impact on the wood as the K&K? I assume it too would penetrate the wood, which I don't like but I am not sure how one would test that.

I haven't had that experience yet. I seen a few people mention this before. Most of my HFN installs for myself and friends were in dreadnoughts and neither of them lacked any bass. The main thing with the pickup is to make sure it has even contact across all 3 feet.