Realistic Amplified Strumming Sound Help??
 

I don't, see a thread about this, and I believe I am posting in the correct area, but if not, please let me know, and I apologize...

When playing live, or running a line out from my amp to recording gear, I can get rather convincing picked acoustic guitar tones... Finger picking and lead playing sound rather good... but I can't get a good strumming sound... It always sounds more electric and not truly acoustic... Does anyone have any advice on how to get a good acoustic sound when strumming the guitar?

Any modelers or pedals or di's or anything that makes the strumming sound good?


I am running a Dean Performer, and at times a Martin DM with a Seymore Duncan soundhole pickup, through a Roland AC60, but I have also tried the Marshall AD50 and the Loudbox... I have also tried a handful of guitars at guitar shops.

Thank you so much for your help!!!

Realistic Amplified Strumming Sound Help??
 

I so wish I had an answer for you, this is my biggest challenge. When I listen to the pros in concert, I notice the same thing. It seems real tough to get a good amplified acoustic tone when strumming.

I suspect that going with a mic would be your best option, or at least a pickup with a gooseneck or soundhole mic. From there, a preamp may still be needed...sorry, I don't have any specifics, but I'm sure there will be others who do...

I would first try using a variety of different picks of varying thickness and of varying materials (plastic, nylon, tortex) to see if any of these make your strumming sound more agreeable to you.

And while I agree about soundhole pickups typically being the least acoustic sounding, they usually don't have as harsh of a strum sound as some under saddle piezos.

when you're playing harder, as you likely are when strumming, the attack causes a spike in voltage on piezo based designs that sounds less acoustic. To my ears, that is where piezo based pickups are at their worst. Under saddle transducers are the worst and you get the "quack" when you play hard but I also hear it with soundboard transducers that are piezo based like the K&K. I hear them as harsh and brittle when played hard. To my ears, mags may not sound acoustic" but I find their slower/softer attack less offensive when played hard.

IME, the best solutions are dual source systems that bring different pickups with different characteristics that cover each others' weaknesses. Unfortunately that means more complicated and more expensive...

When recording, mic your guitar.
Live - it's all about compromise. Different pickup systems, preamps, EQ the sound, etc.

This probably won't help since it involves different guitar but...

I find my Yamaha AC3M does a nice job on strummed acoustic tones into an amp/PA/board. In fact, the strummed sound is more natural than the single note picked sound. So it can be done. I find the aura system also does a decent job at this.

That leads me to think a modeling/imaging approach might get you close to a solution. Some don't like these setups but the Yamaha version does a decent job to my ear.

hunter

Unfortunately, I don't think there's an after market system out there that really sounds good when strumming. Undersaddle pickups tend to quack and sound bad when strummed, magnetic pickups have that very electric characteristic and SBTs to me sound far too warm. I think that's the reason so many bands that rely on a good strummed live tone go for Takamine guitars. Just look at the Eagles, Glenn Frey has the best strummed tone I have ever heard live.

Dual source systems are definitely a better option but this is my dilemma as well. I do quite a lot of aggressive strumming and I still have not found a pickup that does it well. I know a lot of people will recommend pickups like the K&K (with good reason since they sound great) but on their own, they are just lacking that nice high end that I feel is need for someone who strums. You can add a mic to the equation but for most people this is a feedback nightmare.

Thanks everyone. I have looked at the Yamaha AC3R, and I like it. I can find decent, not great tones, but decent out of Taylors and Martins in the 2,000 range, but I can't spend that. haha.

For now, I will just keep using a mic on my Martin for Recording, and play around with stuff. I think the modeler approach may be the way to go...

Thank you very much for all of your advice everyone!!

+1 I have found this with every magnetic pickup made!!!

When I was running magnetic soundhole pickups, I always combined them with an external mic mounted low on my vocal mic stand. Lately, I've been doing that again, even with my dual source rigs when I have gig with lots of strumming. When I have to strum, I just turn down the pickup a bit, and lean into the mic! I use a small OnStage boom accessory.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...9/micstand.jpg

Royd, that explains what I am hearing on my two K&K-equipped guitars. Seems like there should be a simple solution that will dampen these spikes. Is there any preamp or pedal that will do that?

I like my Fishman Aura pedal for both fingerpicking and strumming. I run it into an Ernie Ball volumn pedal that I can back off about 15% if I want to go for an aggressive strumming sound (and stay in the mix), or keep it fully open to finger pick and strum with my nails.

To my ears the Aura used with the shape feature on the AC-60 has a nice bright sound that sits well in mixes for the bands I play with. In some ways I think a nice percussive strum is the most important part I contribute to the overall sound, but I often get compliments during sound check on how nice my solo fingerpicking stuff sounds as well.

IMO if you're stuck in that trade-off space others talked about then you can't do much better than the Aura.

As much as voltage spikes are or may be the culprit in generating quack, it's the positioning of a UST directly under the saddle, or the K&K (and other SBT pickups) on the soundboard, directly under the saddle that accounts for much of the objectional-sounding, amplified tones. What you're hearing is ALL the mechanical noise generated from the strings--especially when flatpicking--as the strings change direction against a flatpick OR against the nails/flesh on aggressively-played finger-style playing. Take the K&K SBT pickups (or other brands of SBT pickups) and move them behind the bridge-pins to the rear of the bridge-plate OR just off the rear of the bridge-plate (in the case of a Martin HD-28 or other guitars with small bridge-plates), directly on the underside of the guitar's top, and you won't hear any mechanical-string noise or quack. What you will hear is an almost microphone-like amplified tone. Why do SBT pickup manufacturers' mounting instructions recommend mounting SBTs on the bridgeplate, directly under the bridge-saddle? This is because Ovation research, back in the 1960s, discovered that the best gain-before-feedback is at this position. The trade-off is that you'll get more of the objectional-sounding, string-noise transients in the amplified tone.

Regards,

SpruceTop

I'd agree with 99% of what sprucetop said here. I would argue that the reason under the saddle sounds bad is not that it picks up objectional string noise as much as the amplitude of that spot. You get the most energy from the string there and very quickly. Regardless of why, I agree it is not the best spot by any stretch. Moving an SBT somewhere else on the top changes the sound significantly. It may or may not be better at any specific spot, but the right spot will sound significantly better IMO than on the bridge plate at the expense of more feedback susceptibility. Moving away from the bridge will also make the attack slower. FWIW, I think the reason K&K recommends its placement is two fold - one is reduction in feedback and two is predictability of the end sound. It is not the best sound you could get but it is also much better than the worst. That consistency makes the product a lot easier to sell.

There are ways to improve a UST as well. I have found that if I place a spruce shim on top of the element, between the saddle and the pickup, that reduces quack... but it also may impact the tone a bit. Likewise, I have seen folk embed the piezo element in clay, also putting something between the pup and the saddle. That helps too with some trade-off in the acoustic sound. In either case you still get quack, just less of it.