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-   -   Neumann Microphone worth the price? (https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=477047)

StrummerLovin 07-20-2017 07:55 AM

Neumann Microphone worth the price?
 
Whats up everyone, thanks for being so helpful and encouraging to a newbie like me. I got a question for if you all don't mind.

After playing for a while I want to record my music, just to put on places like here or for myself to listen to and learn from. I am going to be spending some money on my recording set up as I think I will be a lot happier when I start recording music and listening to it, so I was looking at some of the Neumann microphones. I have read online that they make some of the best microphones for home recording, but I wanted to ask what peoples experience here is with them.

The ones I am eyeing are the U87, U47, KM140, or the KM84. They all seem to be up there in price, so I want to make sure my money is spent wisely and that I am not buying something expensive that I don't need. If anyone can chime in with experience with these mics or suggestions for something better I would be very appreciative. :)

I don't think I could have possibly gotten more help and advice anywhere, this is amazing. Thanks everyone, you made this decision so much easier. I picked up a U87 that was for really cheap on https://www.for-sale.ie/neumann and I am loving it so far. It may have been a tad expensive, but I think that all of the experience I will get and fun I will have recording will make up for it easily. Once again, thanks so much for your help everyone, I cannot get over how nice you all have been.

Bob Womack 07-20-2017 08:43 AM

This is a hard one to answer. Yes, Neumann Mics are worth the price. They've got a sound that is fantastic. They aren't the only manufacturers who make great mics, but I am sold on Neumanns and use them all day long every day. We've got several here at the studio where I work.

With that being said, you are diving off into the deep end if you are, as a novice, getting ready to buy a mic of that caliber on other people's opinion.* Unfortunately it is virtually impossible to try them out. But let me see if I can help a bit. I've come across some other mics that are really, REALLY good and quite a bit less expensive. They don't have the name cache' to them, but they are excellent. I wrote up a review for one of them that is available for $399. The mic is the MXL Revelation tube condenser. My review is HERE and the mic is available HERE. check out the performance by Dayna Petrie towards the bottom of the review.

http://www.in2guitar.com/rev/solo115.jpg

Bob

* My studio owns a beautiful 1950s Neumann U47. Where did we get it? Back in the 1950s a well-off fellow decided he wanted to go into recording as a hobby. He bought the state-of-the-art Ampex tape deck and an excellent Neumann U47. When they arrived he set about learning to record. After fiddling for about eight hours he put the two back in the boxes and stuck them in his closet. In 1983 his widow called and asked if we were interested. Hehehehe... Were we interested? But that shows you what can happen if you blindly invest a big chunk of change. Here they are, side by side:

http://www.in2guitar.com/rev/u4720.jpg

ChuckS 07-20-2017 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrummerLovin (Post 5414163)
Whats up everyone, thanks for being so helpful and encouraging to a newbie like me. I got a question for if you all don't mind.

After playing for a while I want to record my music, just to put on places like here or for myself to listen to and learn from. I am going to be spending some money on my recording set up as I think I will be a lot happier when I start recording music and listening to it, so I was looking at some of the Neumann microphones. I have read online that they make some of the best microphones for home recording, but I wanted to ask what peoples experience here is with them.

The ones I am eyeing are the U87, U47, KM140, or the KM84. They all seem to be up there in price, so I want to make sure my money is spent wisely and that I am not buying something expensive that I don't need. If anyone can chime in with experience with these mics or suggestions for something better I would be very appreciative. :)

It isn't just about the microphones. Have you done enough research to understand all the pieces of gear you will need in your recording and playback chain (including the recording space/room)? It's good that you are willing to 'spend some money on your recording setup', but you probably want to know how and where you will be using it so you know what you will need (i.e. will you be recording in stereo?). Then you probably want to get pieces of gear that are at a somewhat equal level of 'quality/performance'. Also, there's lot of high quality gear, and often times the difference is not quality/performance but personal choice. If you don't yet know your preferences you may not be ready to make the optimal choice.

So, you may get more good information if you describe how you intend to use your recording setup and what your expectations are. Also, if you could provide your budget range (for all the gear combined) you may get better suggestions.

rick-slo 07-20-2017 08:56 AM

Yep, $7,000 for a couple of mikes is up there, and of course there is other recording gear you would need (e.g. pre-amp, DAW, external and/or in the box effects).
And what are you going to be recording? - solo guitar, other instruments, voice?

Personally on guitar I have been using Microtech Gefell M295 and M300 mikes. There are plenty of much less expensive mikes that will do as well.

Regarding recording guitar, if you have that kind of budget I would up front be looking to find and buy great sounding ones.

KevWind 07-20-2017 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrummerLovin (Post 5414163)
Whats up everyone, thanks for being so helpful and encouraging to a newbie like me. I got a question for if you all don't mind.

After playing for a while I want to record my music, just to put on places like here or for myself to listen to and learn from. I am going to be spending some money on my recording set up as I think I will be a lot happier when I start recording music and listening to it, so I was looking at some of the Neumann microphones. I have read online that they make some of the best microphones for home recording, but I wanted to ask what peoples experience here is with them.

The ones I am eyeing are the U87, U47, KM140, or the KM84. They all seem to be up there in price, so I want to make sure my money is spent wisely and that I am not buying something expensive that I don't need. If anyone can chime in with experience with these mics or suggestions for something better I would be very appreciative. :)

You might post what type of recording you are interested in doing i.e. solo acoustic guitar ----guitar/vocal ---additional instruments ---room treatment --etc. etc. As well as post what equipment you might already have
and a preliminary guess at total budget range.

As has been suggested the mic/s is only part of the $ equation, then there are preamp/s --interface/converters ---- interface w/pre's ----- monitor speakers/headphones - --computer, DAW, mic stands, cables, for starters .
With so little information it is hard to give really great answers or advice.
Give some more detailed info and you will get much better, useful, targeted and efficient , answers.

sdelsolray 07-20-2017 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrummerLovin (Post 5414163)
Whats up everyone, thanks for being so helpful and encouraging to a newbie like me. I got a question for if you all don't mind.

After playing for a while I want to record my music, just to put on places like here or for myself to listen to and learn from. I am going to be spending some money on my recording set up as I think I will be a lot happier when I start recording music and listening to it, so I was looking at some of the Neumann microphones. I have read online that they make some of the best microphones for home recording, but I wanted to ask what peoples experience here is with them.

The ones I am eyeing are the U87, U47, KM140, or the KM84. They all seem to be up there in price, so I want to make sure my money is spent wisely and that I am not buying something expensive that I don't need. If anyone can chime in with experience with these mics or suggestions for something better I would be very appreciative. :)

Designing a home recording studio and populating it with equipment should be approached holistically, i.e., all aspects of it should be researched and determined before any gear purchases are made.

Step 1 is to identify what you will be recording, the maximum number of simultaneous tracks you will need to record and the end product you will produce.

Step 2 is to set an overall budget.

Step 3 is to identify, generically, the equipment needed, including computer, software, computer interface, outboard gear, room treatment, etc.

Step 4 is to choose the specific equipment making sure the total cost is within your budget (or revise your budget accordingly).

Step 5 is to purchase the equipment and install it.

Step 6 is to spend the hundreds of hours needed to learn how to use it.

Fairlight 07-20-2017 11:08 AM

My fav budget-realistic Neumann is the TLM-103. Great on vocals and guitars.

alohachris 07-20-2017 01:01 PM

Great Advice Guys.
 
Aloha Strummerlovin',

Great Advice Guys!

I'm in complete agreement with all the guys above touting a holistic approach to studio building - before you buy.

I mean, it makes no sense to invest in great mic's unless you've already created a viable recording space that is properly treated & a compatible signal chain that works well with the mic's you choose.

So please consider doing that first before purchasing Neumann's or any other great mic's. Room Treatment is the key. It's the biggest bang for the buck in terms of creating consistent recordings, controlling early room reflections, separating & balancing frequencies & maximixing your signal chain - especially mic's.

DIY Room Treatment does not have to be expensive, permanent & can work well as portable (you can store broadband absorbers out of the way when not using them). Check out the many "treatment' threads we've had here for info on how to make panels. Make 2-4 4"x2'x4' Owens-Corning 703 rigid fiberglass broadband absorbers & you're on your way, Strummer. I made 22 of them over three years as needed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lni_4HpwmZk

I used to be a high-end "mic-aholic "- for over 35 years. I owned all of the Neumann's you mentioned at one time or another, & some of the best mic's ever made. I slowly made my way up the trough trading & selling. However, it wasn't until I fully committed to creating a well-treated space that I was able to get the most out of those great mic's. Please Don't make my mistake.

FWIW, my current main guitar recording SDC mic's are Schoeps CMC6 with 41's or any of their other modular capsules. My LDC vocal mic's are a Microtech-Gefell UM900 or a Mojave MA-200. I sold everything else off 4-1/2 years ago. No longer addicted. No longer even curious.

Good Luck! Treat That Space, Strummer! Once you're there, I'm sure that all the other mic freaks here would love to discuss the qualities of various mic's with you.

alohachris

PS: I prefer older Neumann mic's to the newer - although they are difficult to find used in great condition. I had a matched pair of mint 1972 U87's LDC's that were unreal for guitar or vocals. And I used to love the KM-84 SDC's for acoustic instruments. The newer Neumann's often have a built in upper-mid rise that you have to contend with. Still, great mic's. After you get your space treated, check out gearslutz classifieds or VintageKing for used. -alohachris-

Andy Howell 07-20-2017 04:02 PM

There are lots of great mics out there which are more affordable. I have been using Mojave mics the last couple of years and they are great mics. The Aston mics are extraordinary value as are the Stam mics from Chile. Take a look at the Gearslutz site!

jim1960 07-20-2017 07:23 PM

Unless you have all the other stuff sorted and in place, you might be putting the cart before the horse. Neumann certainly makes great microphones but what will you be plugging that mic into?

To get the most help from our collective knowledge, we really need to know what you already have in terms of recording gear and what your budget is.

TBman 07-20-2017 08:13 PM

Just from my little bit of experience:

great mic + poor room = poor result

KevWind 07-21-2017 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TBman (Post 5414926)
Just from my little bit of experience:

great mic + poor room = poor result

True, and the reason why room treatment is a basic foundation of good studio recording. And it should be noted a poor mic + great room = mediocre to poor result.

It is after all matter of the weakest link.

However, seeking to degrade the recording to make up for a bad room, misdirects and diverges from the goal, somewhat the philosophical equivalent of walking backwards or sideways on the path of life. It may be easier at first but fails to progress one's journey.

Ty Ford 07-21-2017 08:01 AM

All of the major recording facilities (and the people who work there) know something or they wouldn't fritter their money away on Neumann mics.

Yes, in the right hands and with the right gear and acoustics, they make a difference.

Not everyone on the planet hears the way they do. Coming to grips with that, can be humbling. You're not an Olympic athlete (I'm assuming), so you can't do what they do. You don't play golf like Arnold Palmer did, right? You're not at George Martin's level for recording, right?

As we get past society's (All of us are equally good) lame *** pandering and realize our own limitations. We can accept that there are people who DO know more than others, can hear things others can't which is why they are working in whatever jobs they work in, then Neumann's and Schoeps may make sense to you. You may not be able to hear the difference today, but if you try very hard, you may learn to. Or just don't get them, enjoy them when you hear them well used and get on with your life.

A Neumann or Schoeps in the wrong hands seldom shines.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Al Acuff 07-21-2017 10:49 AM

Check out the AEA N22 ribbon mic. If I started a studio from scratch it's the mic I'd start with. It's designed for singer songwriters with home studios.

I use the N22 for everything. It's my favorite studio mic these days and I have a drawer full of expensive German mics. I use my N22 with an AEA RPQ preamp. The RPQ has replaced a more expensive preamp in my studio and I love it. All my mics sound great through it. Wes Dooley and the good folks at AEA give you a lot of bang for the buck. Highly recommended!

Trevor B. 07-21-2017 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ty Ford (Post 5415319)

A Neumann or Schoeps in the wrong hands seldom shines.

Regards,

Ty Ford

No doubt you're right but a Neumann or Schoeps in the right hands, mmmmm good!

KevWind 07-21-2017 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trevor B. (Post 5415583)
No doubt you're right but a Neumann or Schoeps in the right hands, mmmmm good!

Quite true and in reality goes for a number of different higher quality brands, that inhabit the pro studio world, besides just those two.

Al Acuff 07-21-2017 12:01 PM

A friend of mine bought a U87 for her home voice over studio. She has had difficulty with the mic due to room acoustics and less than perfect mic technique. IMHO a U87 is not a great mic for an amateur getting started. It can be extremely unforgiving.

Recording studios are designed by architects who specialize in acoustic design. They are built for recording music. A high end mic that sounds great in RCA Studio A in NYC may sound awful in your small home studio. It's a question of choosing the horse for the course.

These days there are so many affordable good mics that if your recording sounds bad it's not because of your microphone. Check out the Rode NTK mic and some of the better Audio Technica mics too.

jim1960 07-21-2017 12:48 PM

Several people in this thread have said or implied that a good mic in the hands of an amateur probably won't deliver stellar results. That's true, but it's also true that any mic can be unforgiving in the hands of someone that doesn't understand how to use it. It's also true that not every mic, high end or otherwise, will sound good on every person.

Many here have discouraged the OP from buying a high quality mic. If the OP is intent on building a top quality studio, and if money is not an impediment, there's no reason why he should have to spend years recording on lesser quality gear.

The OP listed some good mics that produce very different results. What you get from a U87 is not similar to what you get from a U47. That tells me the OP still has a lot of homework to do before he makes a purchase but it doesn't tell me that he should be focusing on gear of lesser quality. Whether his initial purchase is a pile of great gear or a pile of okay gear, he's still going to have a learning curve ahead of him and he's not going to be impeded by the higher ceiling the great gear will offer him. If he's intent on building a great studio, buying better gear upfront might even be more economical since he won't be buying cheaper stuff that he'll want to replace in a year or two.

I think the first order of the day would be to get educated. Rent some time in a good studio, try a bunch of different microphones, record something, observe the process from start to finish. This may be a much more complicated process than the OP realizes. It certainly not for everyone. But if he decides he really wants to do this, and he wants to start with high end gear, and if the money is not an issue, I say go for it.

Hurricane Ramon 07-21-2017 06:04 PM

° If You've The Jack Go for it !
 
:D

In perfect world - yeah they are worth it - you betcha . Depends on your goal too .

You can get a hit recording with a lap top , and a relatively inexpensive 48VDC phantom powered condenser mic(s) ,
DAW and single/dual channel analog interface track at a time . The Focusrite or cheaper yet the Berhringer are really
inexpensive interfaces ( $99.00 ) and will do justice to any mic period .

People all over the internet savvy world are doing this daily as you read this .

Less has proven the best in this scenario for a few years now , the studios are dying off one by one to the home
recording musicians . The studio environment will never really die off , only the strong though will
survive as musician's use the empowerment described above . All you need is the material , gear & talent .

Many who are really famous in EDM , guys like DubFX and others have proven low tech works .

Acoustic players world wide are doing it too with ukulele , violin , & guitars ectcetera and live with these interfaces ,
mics & laptops and selling their product using SM57's & 58's and cheaper . One that comes to mind is this monster :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gphiFVVtUI

I'd love a Neumann but - one of those would bust my budget a long while .

I've researched it a lot , listened to friend's recording set ups , maybe
one day I'll be able to nail one down but till then I'm really happy with my
[Gold Sputtered ] 48VDC phantom powered large diaphragm that wasn't a
budget buster and sounds really decent along with a industry standard dynamic on my :
  • Dreads
  • 000 nylon classical acoustic
  • 000 resonator
  • Ukulele - soprano & tenor
  • Chromatic & diatonic harmonics
  • Vocal

EZ :

HR

midwinter 07-22-2017 01:07 AM

As others are saying, there are a LOT of factors to consider hereómostly what you need it for. When I was trying to decide on my first serious instrument mic, I went to a friend's studio and shot out something like 10 mics, ranging from the humble SM57 (which sounded pretty good!) to very expensive Neumanns. But I was looking for a mic that I could use on my playing my guitar; my little studio is built for me to record my stuff. If it works for other people, that's just an added benefit. I'm still looking for the mic I like best for my voice (I've got a few that a use, depending on what sound I'm looking for).

Consider this: you can get some workhorse mics that aren't as expensive as the Neumanns that will serve you just fine until you start dropping even more money on preamps and interfaces and plugins. Then you can sell off older gear to finance newer, better gear.

(For instance, I just picked up a Warm Audio WA87 that is a multi-pattern LDC that is proving very useful for a variety of purposes. You can get them on Ebay for less than $600.)

KevWind 07-22-2017 07:12 AM

Let's see where to start, to try to separate fact from fiction, reality from myth, and the subjective from objective?

Fiction : High end mic/gear is only suitable for professional studios and highly experienced professional engineers.

Fact : There are many very real down earth situations (including many many home situations) where high end gear may be well "worth the price".

Fact: " Worth the Price" is totally subjective and individually specific.

Myth : A high end mic is not suitable for a beginner

Reality: A beginner may not yet have the knowledge or skill to get the sum total of benefits from high end gear --or mid level gear --or low end gear for that matter . Which in an of itself is absolutely not a reason to not get better quality gear.

Fact: the digital age has brought a certain level of accessibility and democratization to recording

Fact: Because of digital tech and new mfg techs the cost of good quality equipment has come way down.


Fact: High end gear is no longer a requirement to produce good quality recordings
BUT------
Fact: with some (if relatively rare exception) most of the better recordings are typically done on high-mid to high end gear.

As for the OP the objective answer is :
Yes Neumann and most other mics, in that price category are in fact well worth the money , which has nothing to do with whether they should buy one.
There are far to many factors and variable at play and the OP has not disclosed what kind of recording he is going to be doing so it is basically imposible to determine what kind of mic let alone what brand might be best suited value and performance wise

tammuz7000 07-22-2017 07:49 AM

I think I would start off with landing on a new MacBook Pro and interface and software such as logic before the mic. Also good quality instruments is a must have. Lots of choices on mics but I would make sure you have the foundation down.

If you just want to hear yourself for practicing and post some songs, check out a zoom h5 or h6. Better yet for seeing and hearing would be a zoom q2

Tom

Ty Ford 07-22-2017 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KevWind (Post 5416749)
Let's see where to start, to try to separate fact from fiction, reality from myth, and the subjective from objective?

Fiction : High end mic/gear is only suitable for professional studios and highly experienced professional engineers.

Fact : There are many very real down earth situations (including many many home situations) where high end gear may be well "worth the price".

Fact: " Worth the Price" is totally subjective and individually specific.

Myth : A high end mic is not suitable for a beginner

Reality: A beginner may not yet have the knowledge or skill to get the sum total of benefits from high end gear --or mid level gear --or low end gear for that matter . Which in an of itself is absolutely not a reason to not get better quality gear.

Fact: the digital age has brought a certain level of accessibility and democratization to recording

Fact: Because of digital tech and new mfg techs the cost of good quality equipment has come way down.


Fact: High end gear is no longer a requirement to produce good quality recordings
BUT------
Fact: with some (if relatively rare exception) most of the better recordings are typically done on high-mid to high end gear.

As for the OP the objective answer is :
Yes Neumann and most other mics, in that price category are in fact well worth the money , which has nothing to do with whether or he you should buy one.
There are far to many factors and variable at play and the OP has not disclosed what kind of recording he is going to be doing so it is basically imposible to determine what kind of mic let alone what brand might be best suited value and performance wise

I see what you did there. :)

Trevor B. 07-22-2017 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KevWind (Post 5415590)
Quite true and in reality goes for a number of different higher quality brands, that inhabit the pro studio world, besides just those two.

Couldn't agree more. Good quality mikes are important but there's so much more to recording than the brand of microphones we prefer and this thread is pointing that out in spades. That said, if a really good deal were to come along on a Neumann or pair of Schoeps I'd be very tempted.

Ty Ford 07-22-2017 09:37 AM

Yah know, I wouldn't kick an AudioTechnica AT4060 or AT5040 out of bed either. AT makes mostly mid range mics, but from time to time they flex their design muscles pop out a stunner just to show they can.

I didn't make a typo above. I do mean the AT5040.

https://tyfordaudiovideo.blogspot.co...hragm.html?m=1

Regards,

Ty Ford

jim1960 07-22-2017 09:45 AM

My Flea 47 ended the search for a better vocal mic for myself. It's worth every penny.

KevWind 07-22-2017 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jim1960 (Post 5416938)
My Flea 47 ended the search for a better vocal mic for myself. It's worth every penny.

I'll bet, they get rave reviews. Personally I opted for a Brauner Phantom V over a U87ai for vocals , but it was a tough decision.
I keep getting periodically tempted to go to the Cathedral Pipes "Notre Dame" for a tube U47 -ish type mic, and for something different than the Brauner, but haven't wanted to put up the mula (Yet) :eek:

Fran Guidry 07-22-2017 11:43 AM

I poke fun at the Gearslutz mentality but must admit that I visit the Remote section regularly. I stumbled over this thread there and it seems applicable to a lot of "which mic" discussions:

The Mics You have Dumped, and Why...

Fran

jim1960 07-22-2017 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fran Guidry (Post 5417050)

I'm about to or have dumped plenty of mics, not all of them bad.

Among them are...
Blue Kiwi - it's a good mic with a U87 flavor but if you run it through a good tube pre it's really beautiful.
Earthworks SR30 - a little tricky to position but once you have it right it gives a lovely upper frequency sparkle.
ADK A6 - I bought a pair of these because back in the day DreamGuitars was using a pair to record tracks by Al Petteway. They're very accurate for acoustic guitar. Nothing is hyped. Great bang for the buck.

All good mics but I eventually found mics I liked better for my specific purposes. At this point I only have four mics that I can say are definitely staying: the Flea 47, a Lauten Audio Atlantis, and a pair of Gefell M295 sdc mics.

I'd love to add a couple of quality ribbon mics to that list but my room, while treated, is too small to get good results. I don't have another room that would be any better, so I'm stuck for now. In 11 months I'll be retired and my plan is to move and triple my house size. I'll be looking for a place that has a room suitable to building a nice semi-pro home studio where I'll be able to take on projects other than my own. Very much looking forward to that.

alohachris 07-22-2017 03:35 PM

Nice GS Thread Fran
 
Aloha Fran,

I know about that "GS mentality" over at gearslutz. I reference GS for others, but mostly crack up reading the "High End" opinions & venomous debates among long-time, gear-head, internet adversaries. I like GS for the USED GEAR classifieds & also for being able to create discussions with some of the best engineers & producers who ever lived.

The thread you shared IS funny. I mean, you can really feel the hate & contempt that people have for some of the mic's they've owned, as if it were personal. Ha!

To which I'll add, considering the OP's question about Neumann microphone's, the Neumann TLM 103. It didn't work for anyone's vocals or any of the guitars I tried to record using it. It was a thousand dollar dog. For some voices, an SM58 sounded way better than the TLM 103.

I know some will strongly disagree, but I felt that you could usually do better than any of Neumann's TLM series of mic's. For example, some like the TLM 170 as a mid-range mic used with stereo SDC's. But with much better offerings like the AEA 84 & 88 or new N22, who needs the TLM?

I've auditioned, owned & dumped thousands of mic's in my time, including some of the classics like U47's & 48's, C10s, 251's, KSM44A's, U86's, 87's & 89's & all kinds of 47 clones. etc. For me, the Neumann TLM 103 was the biggest let down. A real dog, IMO and many agree.

Which mic's did I wish I'd never dumped?

A pair of mint AKG EB352 SDC 's adapted for CK-1 caps that I got from Will Ackerman in 1981. Loved them for years. And...

A very nice pair of Peluso P-28 tube SDC mic's that I loved as well.

Guys, check out those Peluso P-28's. Great sleeper mic's for acoustic guitar & NOT expensive. Captures the real natural, fat sound of your guitar with no hype. Loves being paired with an A Designs Pacifica preamp.

Also, some great tube mic's lend themselves to experimentation with various tubes. The differences between those & their stock counterparts can sometimes be huge (I know Fran, you & Doug don't like such strong language when decribing gear differences - but it's true for me!).

Thanks for sharing, Fran!

alohachris


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