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-   -   schaller "grand tune" machine heads (https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=377600)

dbintegrity 02-28-2015 04:56 PM

schaller "grand tune" machine heads
 
So I have to admit I found myself really liking the look of the new Schaller grand tune tuning machines.... I couldn't find information / reviews anywhere so I just gave up and ordered a set off ebay... anybody have any experience with them?

Halcyon/Tinker 02-28-2015 05:04 PM

They're very nice, but not particularly any better/different than the Grover or gotoh offerings in function, IMO.

Howard Klepper 02-28-2015 05:29 PM

They are more comparable to Waverly quality than they are to Grover or Gotoh.

B. Howard 03-01-2015 06:54 AM

I've been eying them too. I've always liked Schaller hardware for myself. Guess I will need to order a set.

Ned Milburn 03-01-2015 10:28 AM

FWIW, they look like lovely tuners, but from the photos I have seen I can't tell if the bushings they will require are just push-in bushings or if they screw and tighten to the back-plate. I tend to think the former may be true.

If tuners are not 3-on-a-plate design, I prefer ones that have an integrated bushing that screws to the back-plate. Recently I have tried Sperzel locking tuners which not only look great (gold plated) but they are ridiculously quick to change strings and quick to use when tuning. There is a small trick with the locking tuners, however, in that you need to give enough slack so that there is at least a half wrap around the tuner post so that when tuning up and down for alternate tunings, the kink in the string (as it comes out of the post-hole) isn't bent back and forth, otherwise you will continually break strings. The Sperzel tuners are a bit heavier than some others, and this may or may not be the preference of some owners and builders.

dbintegrity 03-01-2015 10:55 AM

Thanks for the comments. they definitely look like they can be a very high quality alternative to Waverly machines....
I ordered them on ebay but the dealer was the 12fth fret in Toronto so I suppose I should have them this week and then I'll know for sure.
Dan

Tom West 03-01-2015 05:47 PM

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/i...ps63442855.jpg
This showed up on the UMGF, not sure of the total story but you might try a search on the site.
Tom

Bruce Sexauer 03-09-2015 11:27 PM

I have used a dozen sets on my guitars at this point. Like all new whatever there have been some teething issues. Some of the first production run have issues with excessive backlash from a technical POV, but the tuners are so smooth on the take up that as long as there is tension on the string, the issue is so transparent that there is no apparent problem. I have also seen two individual tuners that had a rough feel to them. Schaller has warranted these without complaint. Now there is a second generation production run. I have another bunch of tuners ordered and paid for which should arrive any day. They do claim to have addressed the issues I have pointed out to them.

I may be an unusually picky customer, but I have had issues with every kind of tuner I've ever used except Rodgers, and they are too expensive to use as a standard tuner on my guitars and are reserved for customer upgrade. Besides, the Rodgers doesn't look right to me on a vintage American style guitar, which the GrandTune certainly does.

GrandTune has a press in ferrel like on a Waverly rather that screw in guide like a Schaller M6.

Ned Milburn 03-10-2015 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer (Post 4396723)
I may be an unusually picky customer, but I have had issues with every kind of tuner I've ever used except Rodgers, and they are too expensive to use as a standard tuner on my guitars and are reserved for customer upgrade. Besides, the Rodgers doesn't look right to me on a vintage American style guitar, which the GrandTune certainly does.

GrandTune has a press in ferrel like on a Waverly rather that screw in guide like a Schaller M6.

1) Bruce, although you may indeed be "unusually" picky, I don't think at all that your pickiness is too picky. People who know me also know how persnickity I am, and I pick up on small details similar to what you mention. Paying attention to these small details defines the difference between very good and excellent.

2) I have used Jorg Graf's hand-made tuners on one of the classical guitars I built. Those tuners are FANTASTIC!! But like you stated about the Rodgers tuners, they are just too expensive as a standard tuner.

3) Glad to know the GrandTunes have ferrules. Too bad they are not screw in (which I prefer), but interesting enough that I might try them sometime on a future guitar.

Thanks for reporting your experience with them.

John Arnold 03-10-2015 08:07 AM

Quote:

If tuners are not 3-on-a-plate design, I prefer ones that have an integrated bushing that screws to the back-plate.
AFAIK, ther are no open back tuners with that construction. For many of my customers, enclosed tuners are not an option.
.

Ned Milburn 03-10-2015 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Arnold (Post 4397007)
AFAIK, ther are no open back tuners with that construction. For many of my customers, enclosed tuners are not an option.
.

Yes, I think you are quite right, John, about open back tuners.

Just curious, why do some of your customers prefer open tuners...?? Weight...?? Looks...??

dbintegrity 03-10-2015 09:59 AM

I received my set the other day. They look and feel nice, may not be quite the Waverly quality, but seem ok. These may also be from the first run.... I prefer the open backs due to their looks and weight.
dan

merlin666 08-10-2015 11:38 AM

My guitar has Gotoh SE700 tuners and I don't care much for the way they turn and consider a replacement. When I compare Gotoh specs with Waverley it seems that this may not be a perfect fit and might require some additional drilling or reaming. However, these Grand Tune gears look very appealing and I like the colour options for sure. Can someone please comment on how well they might fit for replacing the Gotoh SE700s?

Bruce Sexauer 08-19-2015 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merlin666 (Post 4597956)
My guitar has Gotoh SE700 tuners and I don't care much for the way they turn and consider a replacement. When I compare Gotoh specs with Waverley it seems that this may not be a perfect fit and might require some additional drilling or reaming. However, these Grand Tune gears look very appealing and I like the colour options for sure. Can someone please comment on how well they might fit for replacing the Gotoh SE700s?

Any issues changing from your Gotohs to Waverlys will be the same changing to GrandTunes, as they claim to be the same footprint. The only difference I have found is that the ferrel/bushing on the Schaller requires a slightly larger bore in the headstock face as compared to the Waverly.

justonwo 08-21-2015 07:40 PM

Bruce will have had more experience with them from a builder's perspective (having probably acted as a firewall for potential problems). One of my guitars has a set and they are very close to Waverly in quality. I would say my Waves are a touch smoother, but I have also been told that Waverly has had their own issues in the past.

iim7V7IM7 08-22-2015 03:01 AM

I have A set of copper finish/snakewood button GrandTunes them on one of my guitars from Bruce. They look and work great!

http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/...ps3av1h0lz.jpg

I think Bruce uses them because he likes the "S"! :)

Ken Franklin 03-24-2016 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Arnold (Post 4397007)
AFAIK, ther are no open back tuners with that construction. For many of my customers, enclosed tuners are not an option.
.

Gotoh recently came out with an open back tuner that does have a screw in ferrule. Might be just the ticket for some. http://www.g-gotoh.com/international...product=sxn510

Bruce Sexauer 03-24-2016 10:36 AM

Those Gotoh tuners look like a good idea to me. Apparently, however, they rattle or something judging by this line in their advertising copy: "The improved performance and durability which the SX510 series provides, thanks to GOTOH’s unique design and manufacturing, gives you the chance to experience a sound you’ve never heard before." ;)

The Bard Rocks 03-24-2016 07:19 PM

Grand tuners
 
I've liked almost every tuner I have had in the last 30-40 years. Probably because my first tuners were so awful, that anything was an improvement. An easy act to follow. The Shaller Grand Tuners are among my favorites, easy to use, accurate, and they hold well. They also were a good appearance choice in my case. But I didn't choose them specifically, but happily took whatever came with the guitar, perfectly happy that Bruce picked them.

patmatt 10-28-2016 01:36 PM

Schallar Grand Tune
 
Love them. I have two Martin Custom shop guitars that came with cheap Martin open back tuners (Grover). (D-28 Cocobolo Adirondack Hide Glue, and Om-28 Guatemalan Rosewood, VTS Adirondack top, 2 of the best guitars I've ever owned). I opted for these because they are being used on Custom shop guitars and IMHO are smoother and easier to turn than Waverly tuners.

OMO 02-17-2017 01:44 PM

What is the best machine head for Waverly style replacements? Is the Rogers really the best (with no specs on ratios) or is the Schaller the best or is the good old Waverly the best you can get in this style?

I'm using Waverly tuners now on my Martin OM but the Gotoh 510s on my Taylors really seem to be a better tuner to me. Of course, the Gotohs will not fit on my braz Martin and I am not drilling new holes that is for sure! The Waverlys have a sort of overly tight feeling. In my mind it is the tuning ratio being better in the Gotohs. Although I recognize the fine craftsmanship of the Waverly's.

peteybabes 02-11-2019 10:24 AM

no traffic on this for a while...

has anybody been using the latest versions of these tuners? I am wondering if I should spec them on my upcoming McKnight build :D

maxmonte 02-19-2019 05:07 PM

I have used them on a few guitars, no issues and I really like the look of the vintage copper ones. They are not as smooth as a sealed gotoh 510, and the ratio is lower, but I think they are up there with the waverly.

theEdwinson 03-16-2019 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peteybabes (Post 5976580)
no traffic on this for a while...

has anybody been using the latest versions of these tuners? I am wondering if I should spec them on my upcoming McKnight build :D

I recently ordered three sets of the Grand Tune tuners direct from Schaller in Germany. I’m building a couple very special guitars for an upcoming show, and knowing Schaller’s generally sterling reputation, I fell hard for the exotic finishes and button options of the Grand Tune design. I’m usually a Gotoh guy, but I thought these Grand Tunes would work well on these new guitars.

Sad to say, all three sets are junk. I would use a more pungent word, but this Forum frowns on that.

Two of my Grand Tune sets are the slot-head type, and the other for solid headstock. I got the gorgeous Vintage Copper finish, the Ruthenium, and a set of Black with Mother-of-toilet-seat buttons. Very attractive looking tuners, no doubt about it.
But I did notice, every tuner in every set had at least 1/8 turn of slop in the mechanism. Oh well, Waverlys do that too. I figured they might snug up under string tension.

I mounted the Vintage Copper set on my BRW/Bearclaw Zephyr 00 slot—head guitar, and strung up. Right away, I noticed the slop was still there. And on the open G string, I got a loud sympathetic rattle at the headstock.None of the usual suspects- loose screws or bushings, sitar-ing at the nut, loose truss rod, etc.- were the problem. I could not locate the source of this rattle. And let me reiterate, it was LOUD.
I put the guitar aside to deal with later, and installed another set of the Grand Tunes on my quilted Maple/German Eclipse OM guitar.

Again, every tuner had an unacceptable amount of slop in the action, and they felt quite stiff when tuned to pitch. And AGAIN, on the open G string, that same loud rattle happened. ONLY on the open G string, not on open or fretted notes anywhere else.
This is on two different size guitars, different scale lengths, different headstock designs, and even different string sets. Same loud rattle on both open G strings.
I was not able to sleuth out the cause of that sympathetic rattle. Except that it was right there at the headstock. When I would press on the tuner gears, the rattle would diminish, but not go away.

The show is less than two weeks away, and I don’t have time for this annoying glitch. So I threw a Hail Mary pass to StewMac and ordered a couple sets of the Swiss-made Schertler tuners. I’ve used them before, and never had a bad tuner in a set. They are well made and accurate. And they look nice too.

Well, I just finished retro-fitting the Shertlers, and there is no slop, no rattle, just the silky smooth and accurate tuning I expect in a quality tuner. And without that sympathetic rattle, the guitars sound great!

I’m not sure what to do about those Schaller Grand Tunes. I spent almost $500 on three sets, and they are garbage. Yes, I am upset about it.
Anyway, that’s my $0.02 on the matter. I would greatly appreciate any other experience-based opinions or thoughts from others, who have used the Grand Tune tuners from 2018-2019. Did I just get three bad sets, and all the rest of them are fine? What gives here?

peter.coombe 03-16-2019 05:12 PM

I would agree that the Schertlers are superior tuners, probably better than any other open back tuners on the market, but I have not had the experience you had with the GrandTune tuners. I think I have used 3 sets of GrandTune guitar tuners and many mandolin sets, and none have had any excessive slop or rattle problems. Maybe you got some early production sets that I have been told had some issues that were later fixed by Schaller.

M Hayden 03-17-2019 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Franklin (Post 4875198)
Gotoh recently came out with an open back tuner that does have a screw in ferrule. Might be just the ticket for some. http://www.g-gotoh.com/international...product=sxn510

I recently replaced a set of stock martin tuners with Gotoh SXN510V nickel finish, and the screw holes lined up fine. They are smooth and functional replacements for enclosed tuners.

Link to tuners: http://g-gotoh.com/international/product/sxn510v.html

brianv4 08-17-2019 10:35 AM

Grand Tune, Not So Grand
 
Ordered an OM28 (reimagined standard series) from Martin, picked it up last Sept 2018. They're using these Schaller's. The 3rd, 4th and 5th string tuners became so hard to turn it was killing my fingers trying to tune. I have to lay the guitar on my lap in order to get enough torque to tune up. Putting new strings on practically destroyed my hands. They are being replaced by Martin this coming week, we'll see...

Wade Hampton 08-18-2019 06:21 PM

A few months ago, Peter wrote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by peter.coombe (Post 6009262)
I would agree that the Schertlers are superior tuners, probably better than any other open back tuners on the market, but I have not had the experience you had with the GrandTune tuners.

I haven't had any experience with Schaller GrandTune tuners, in large part because my own personal preference on guitar is for sealed gear tuners with lightweight wooden or plastic aftermarket buttons, not open geared. But I do have a set of Schertler open gear tuners on one instrument, and they're by far and away the best open gear guitar tuners I've dealt with. I have one guitar with Waverlys, which are nice, and have had open gear Gotoh and 18 to 1 gear ratio Grover tuners on other instruments. But the Schertlers are superior to all those.

The only other open gear tuners I own that work as smoothly and flawlessly as the Schertlers are the custom Rodgers set that I ordered for one of my mandolins.


Wade Hampton Miller

peter.coombe 08-18-2019 08:57 PM

+1 for Schertler tuners. I use them on all my high end guitars.


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