New journey nylon string guitar!
 

No, it's not here yet. I'm just tweaking Rob a bit to see how it's going. I've viewed nylon string acoustic guitars as the biggest challenge for CF makers. The classical nylon stung guitar has had 500 years of R&D. Rainsong, Blackbird, and Emerald have all taken the challenge and done well. Now Journey is taking the challenge. I can hardly wait. What's up Rob?

A healthy addiction Evan :)

A good addiction, yes. But costly if I tried to keep all the CF guitars that I've liked. However, by giving them all a try and then passing them along at decent prices I've managed to play a wide range of CF nylon guitars and keep the two that suit me best.

I suppose that I will be one of the first to purchase a Journey nylon just to keep the thrill going. There is something addicting about the revolution occurring with CF musical instruments and I have really enjoyed having a small part of the fun.

I have a similar addiction with strings.

Sir;

Any insights on nylon strings?

Unfortunately not! But don't get me gassing for another guitar.

I have La Bella nylon strings on my Cordoba mini, which have a wound 3. They do the job well enough but the 2nd string is a bit floppy.

And that's all I've got.

I'm just bringing this up as bait for Rob. I've enjoyed Journey's journey and appreciated the effort it takes to work the new frontier of CF guitar materials, shapes and sound engineering. I've seen a number of CF companies come and go, but Journey has held fast, worked through one obstacle after another, and made it to a sweet product.

Rob has said that Journey is working on a nylon string CF instrument. I am waiting with bated breath. Competing with 500 years of classical guitar R&D is not easy, but Rob promised. So I am holding his toes to the fire. So where is it at, Rob?

Darn you Evan....once again you pour GAS on the fire :-)

I contacted Rob and told him that his presence is requested--we want answers. Journey has been a nice and innovative addition to the CF field. It's not exactly nice, but I really enjoyed Journey's hard run to its first CF guitar. It's sort of like one of those fairy tales where the heroes run into one obstacle after another until finally the sun breaks out, the birds sing, and a new guitar is born. I suspect the development of a nylon Journey cannot be easy and look forward to some narrative.

Hey Guys, I'm so sorry I missed this dialogue. I'm subscribed to it now. We've just moved to a larger workshop and we're crazy busy with production. We've finished initial tooling on the components and bracing for the classical, but are working on neck and fretboard. However, we're pushing the classical launch back to early 2017 because I finally put together an engineering team with the ability to design a product that's been on my heart for three years now - let's say it's as innovative as the Overhead, but something entirely different. ;) We'll keep you posted as any progress is made...

Thanks for chiming in, Rob! :up:

Oh Rob, you big tease. I hope you realize that I am getting older by the minute and I can't wait forever for your new nylon.

And to have placed your own heart's desire ahead of mine, that's just unmannerly.

On the other hand, guessing what your heart's desire might be is an interesting proposition.

Alistair has done the cf harp/guitar, Joe has done the cf Uke, others have done the violin and cello. Let me guess, you've always wanted a CF banjo. Keep us posted on how this is going.

Hey Evan, so sorry for any letdown here. We'll bring a classical to the market in the not-so distant future, but this other product will definitely get your attention. Trust me, you'll be glad we put this first. :)

Rob;

A 7 yr old boy on the drums, a 4 yr old grooving girl, a drooling baby boy, and a patient wife--This family is ready for a banjo.

So, if not a banjo, a suitcase guitar? Or maybe a dulcimer? The suspense is killing me.

Sure sounds like it. ;)

While a banjo could be a perfect fit in Rob's family, an electric guitar might be better.

I'd be pretty enthused about a cf guitar along the lines of the old Danelectro U2--a hollow, thin-bodied, light, highly playable, electric guitar.

This would probably be the easiest cf guitar to make, would nicely expand Journey offerings, and would be an instrument that could keep up with a 7 year old on the drums.

Any time I hear banjo and drool in the same sentence going forward I'm gonna just have to crack up. A few days before I read this post I heard a running banjo joke thread with: "How do you know if a room is level? When the banjo player drools from both sides of his mouth!"

:)

Rob;

You indicated that you are still working on the neck and fret board for the Journey nylon string guitar. I'd like to weigh in on your decision making.

I've developed an affinity for a 1 7/8" nut width. That is the width of many hybrids and I think there's a very good reason for going to that width.

The classical, nylon string has a 2" nut width, which is daunting for steel string players who are used to a 1 6/8" width. Conversely, the 1 6/8" nut width is tight for nylon string players. The 1 7/8" with is a compromise width that is easily adapted to by both steel and nylon players.

This is not to say that a 1 6/8" nut is out of the question. My Rainsong Parlor nylon has the narrow nut and I've grown accustomed to it. But I suspect that the RS nylon is aimed at steel string players and is not so appealing to nylon players.

Just a thought.

And, by the way, is a there a time frame for when you will reveal your new surprise instrument?

Hey Evan,

I'd be curious to hear what others think about nut width. For the OC520 we went for a traditional classical scale and neck, because it sounds very similar to a traditional classical guitar. However, I know classical guitarists are extremely demanding when it comes to tone. I'm curious what others think on traditional vs crossover neck. I'd tend to think if we went with a crossover neck for nylon, we'd get a little more tolerance for the tonal result. thoughts?

The surprise instrument should be demoing this fall and shipping by NAMM '17. Best case is we'd have a classical demo at the show, but I can't make any promises... As for the new product, if you play live or in a group - you'll want one. :)

Rob

I stand on the other end from Evan. I prefer the traditional 2" nut width. While I am okay with the standard scale, I would prefer something shorter say about 630mm.

I like the traditional (no cut away) body style. A flat to nearly flat radius.

There are already cross-over nylon CF guitars out there, there is not a traditional style classical CF out there.

John;

Glad you are weighing on this. We've had this discussion many times and I think that there is a very good reason why CF nylon instruments are generally hybrid.

I believe that the primary reason is that traditional, classical guitar players are probably the most resistant of players when it comes to modifications. They are very much into wooden, fat necked, wide nuted, 12 fret instruments with no cutaways and no electronics. I believe that such players are small in number and not likely candidates for carbon fiber instruments.

The larger market, however, is less defined and all over the place. Jazz, country western, folk, blues, pop players, and so forth, all have varying notions of what they want. Hybrid guitars, in my estimation, tend to be compromises that may not suit any particular player, but are functional for just about everyone.

It will be interesting to hear what other forum members have to say.

I think its neat that Rob is throwing the question out to us and I hope he gets a lot of response.

It is a testament to this great CF forum, and to Journey Instruments, that they and other makers of fine CF guitars listen to opinions from forum members here about possible new CF guitar designs.

Hat's off.

I can only add, being one who alternates in no particular order between playing electric 6-string and acoustic 6-string guitars, including 3 CF guitars, that I can adapt easily to the 1 7/8" neck as well as the narrower dimension found on most electric guitars. Not owning a nylon classical guitar, I for one have stayed away from them - partly because the 2" nut width and the uber flat fingerboard are so weird by comparison, forcing me to adapt my note, chording and slide techniques. Which means it doesn't sound to my ears like the "me" playing who I am used to, if that makes sense.

I'd love to play my style on familiar dimensions, and have that sound and feel like nylon.

Not to downplay opinions from classical guitarists (they are valid), I suspect that I might me in the majority on this question when it comes to marketing a nylon CF to folks who are accustomed to playing a variety of rock, blues, jazz, country, etc.

Nylon continues to be a possible for me. Like others have stated, 1 7/8 with radiused fingerboard please

Hasn't Emerald even made a nylon using 1 3/4" in the past?

Evan is the expert on CF nylon hybrids. I believe BlackBird did one on a Super OM and the others have been Emerald creations. For some reason it sticks on my mind that Rainsong created a nylon hybrid but I don't know that it is in production.

The BlackBird Rider Nylon has the nut and scale I like, just not the body style. Cut the neck off of it and marry it to a Journey and you have a great guitar.

My simple point is the marketplace has CF nylon hybrids but not a traditional style classical guitar.

Will classical player purchase a CF version for travel. I suspect they would for all the same reason people here who own high end wood guitars and ukuleles have CF versions.

My 2 cents

Hey All, thanks so much for the advice. We're watching and will take all the wisdom here in consideration. :)

Long time reader, first time poster. This is the question I have been waiting for.

Over the past two years, I have been transitioning from steel string electric to nylon string acoustic. The reason why it has taken so long is that I haven't found the right guitar. My search led me to the AGF, where I became aware of carbon fiber.

Nylon crossovers are the newest style of guitar, and the details haven't been dialed in like they have for classical and steel string acoustic guitars. I've been using a classical guitar during my search, but I have no intention of becoming a classical guitarist. What I'm looking for is a nylon string guitar that allows me to continue playing my current style of music with the technique I have developed over many years of playing steel strings, while adding the softer tone and playability of nylon to my musical palette.

I also have an electrical engineering degree, so when I analyze guitars, I dive in to the details. As an engineer, I know the most effective way to experimentally design something is to deliberately make one version that is a little too big, and another version that is a little too small. This establishes a range, and the goldilocks guitar is somewhere in the middle. Fortunately, with regard to neck width and string spacing, this has already been done. For my technique, a traditional classical guitar is a little too big, and the Rainsong NP12 is a little too small. The goldilocks neck dimensions are:

Neck width at nut: 1 7/8" or 48mm.
Neck width at 12th fret: 2 1/4" or 57mm

I recently bought a wooden crossover with goldilocks neck dimensions, because the classical was beginning to hurt my left arm, but the string spacing wasn't right. So last week I bought a set of nut slot files and some blank nuts and saddles, with the intention of discovering the string spacing range. For the purpose of this experiment, I am controlling string spacing by creating notches in both the nut and saddle.

It turns out that classical guitar dimensions are the way they are for a good reason. Reducing the nut width to 48mm can still produce a fine guitar, but string spacing is so tight that even a 0.2mm adjustment can spell the difference between comfortable and unplayable. As string spacing gets wider, the gap between the E strings and the fretboard edge gets smaller, so the range in this design space is defined by the following:

1) What is the minimum fretboard edge gap that prevents the high E string from slipping off the edge? This defines the maximum allowable string spacing. My current wooden crossover spacing is too wide.

2) What is the minimum string spacing that prevents accidental muting of adjacent strings? This, by definition, defines the minimum allowable string spacing. The Rainsong NP12 is too narrow.

I am now experimentally determining the goldilocks string spacing. My starting point is:

String spacing at nut: 1 5/8", or 41.3mm
String spacing at saddle: 2 1/4", or 57.2mm

This produces a fretboard edge gap of 1/8" at the nut and 5/32" at the 12th fret. Based on my experience with the factory setup, I suspect this is the absolute minimum fretboard edge gap that can safely guarantee no slipping. I will then create a nut/saddle pair to identify the minimum possible string spacing that is still playable. I suspect this will be 40mm at the nut and 56mm at the saddle. It will take me a few days to do this, since my nut shaping skills are currently non-existent, but my confidence is limitless.

Hi Tom

I'm also constantly thinking about carbon fibre crossovers, but they are expensive so I don't want to dive in anywhere. What was the wooden cross over?

Anyway, I have sent you a private message - look at the top right of the page under your forum name.

I think we tend to forget the classical guitar has developed to the current specs over hundreds of years. That means thousands if not millions and millions of players and luthiers that came to settle on the form we associate with that guitar.

Its a design that has been well considered and on that has had luthiers and players take to a place they consider perfection.

That time tested design is a hole in the current CF guitar lineup.

The problem for CF builders is, the time tested design tends to appeal to traditional nylon classical players who are very used to tradition and are even less likely to venture into the world of CFs than wood steel string players even if the neck specs were designed to specifically appeal to them. So cracking that nut likely isn't the market that CF builders are aiming for...at least for quite some time. Rather, as CF builders are already focussed on steel string instruments, offering such players a nylon option has much greater chance of acceptance to make it worthwhile enough to try at all.