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-   -   Why no fret markers on a classical (https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179994)

Kabalan 03-24-2010 10:31 AM

hi gustavo
yes i will perform in sau paulo
the dates for brasil are abril 19 to 24
great to see you there, i post you in the mail, the place and date.
obrigado
Eblen

ljguitar 03-24-2010 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fngrpck (Post 2171024)
I believe fret markers actually slow your playing down. It's analogous to looking at the keys while typing

Hi fngrpck…
If this is universally applicable, then shouldn't we drive blindfolded since it slows our reflexes down to have to watch where we are going and trying to steer, accelerate/brake at the same time?

And when I’m chopping onions with my sharpest knives I probably should look away too since it will slow my food prep times if I watch the knife and my hands...

These of course would be foolish, but they are evidence that many activities involve visual cues which actually enhance the performance of the participant.


Gobo 03-24-2010 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ljguitar (Post 2171280)
Hi fngrpck…
If this is universally applicable, then shouldn't we drive blindfolded since it slows our reflexes down to have to watch where we are going and trying to steer, accelerate/brake at the same time?

And when I’m chopping onions with my sharpest knives I probably should look away too since it will slow my food prep times if I watch the knife and my hands...

These of course would be foolish, but they are evidence that many activities involve visual cues which actually enhance the performance of the participant.


The examples you state would eventually result in injury or death which is kind of drastic compared to not looking at fretboard markers on a guitar.

Sometimes it's good not to have to rely on such things, but it's always nice to have something you can draw upon as a point of reference...imho

Joe N 03-24-2010 11:42 AM

I have to admit that I'm pretty dependent on the "idiot dots" for quick navigation. They're on the guitar and right in front of me. Maybe I should practice some with my eyes closed or in the dark.

fngrpck 03-24-2010 05:56 PM

Hi fngrpck…
If this is universally applicable, then shouldn't we drive blindfolded since it slows our reflexes down to have to watch where we are going and trying to steer, accelerate/brake at the same time?

And when I’m chopping onions with my sharpest knives I probably should look away too since it will slow my food prep times if I watch the knife and my hands...

These of course would be foolish, but they are evidence that many activities involve visual cues which actually enhance the performance of the participant.


Hey lj,

All the examples you use have variables in them, constantly changing,etc.
so visual vigilance is necessary. The guitar fingerboard is static (never changes) so though markers help initially as reference points I believe they hinder later on. After 400 years or so the violin proves this out.

fngrpck

Long813 03-24-2010 06:01 PM

A question semi-related to the off topic ... er topic. Why and/or when did guitar develop frets? I would assume that the first guitars were fret-less (like their siblings) and I've yet to see much information or documentation that it existed (seems like a new-aged novelty to me).

ljguitar 03-24-2010 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fngrpck (Post 2171847)
...Hey lj,
...All the examples you use have variables in them, constantly changing,etc.
so visual vigilance is necessary. The guitar fingerboard is static (never changes) so though markers help initially as reference points I believe they hinder later on. After 400 years or so the violin proves this out.
fngrpck

Hi f-pk…
Well it depends on what you consider changing. A piano's key width doesn't change, but the 1st fret of a guitar is double the size of the 12th, and if you look at my multi-fret, not only do the frets change size, but the angle of the frets - in two directions! So the frets are a different width on one side of the fingerboard than the other...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/148/4...56b873f5_b.jpg

I’m not arguing whether frets move around, I’m just challenging the idea that memorizing where they are makes better musicians. There is far more to music than hitting the proper notes without looking...and it certainly is not part of classical tradition to not look. We have fine examples of players who look and those who don't. Most just glance from time to time, but then the degree of difficulty of a piece pretty much determines how much ''looking'' takes place.

So you go ahead and memorize the fingerboard, and I’ll glance at mine. Let's both make great music...

And the violin comment you made doesn't even make sense to me...sorry. What on earth does 400 years of violin ''prove out''? That fretless instruments don't have fretmarkers?

And what about the first 150 years of violins - don't they count? (Violins have been around since the mid 1500s).


stringjunky 03-25-2010 05:07 AM

[QUOTE=ljguitar;2171986][COLOR="DarkSlateGray"][SIZE="2"]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/148/4...56b873f5_b.jpg

/QUOTE]

The markers on your guitar make it for me...the icing on the cake. ;)

Joe N 03-25-2010 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Long813 (Post 2171854)
A question semi-related to the off topic ... er topic. Why and/or when did guitar develop frets? I would assume that the first guitars were fret-less (like their siblings) and I've yet to see much information or documentation that it existed (seems like a new-aged novelty to me).

I don't know when, but as to why, I would think that it's ease of playing. A fretless guitar would be like learning to play a violin - you couldn't even begin to sound decent until you've seriously developed both your ear and a feel for the right spot to jump to.

I guess the closest thing we have to it would be slide guitar, but there you still use the frets to guide you.

Joe N 03-25-2010 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ljguitar (Post 2171986)
Hi f-pk…
Well it depends on what you consider changing. A piano's key width doesn't change, but the 1st fret of a guitar is double the size of the 12th, and if you look at my multi-fret, not only do the frets change size, but the angle of the frets - in two directions! So the frets are a different width on one side of the fingerboard than the other...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/148/4...56b873f5_b.jpg

I’m not arguing whether frets move around, I’m just challenging the idea that memorizing where they are makes better musicians. There is far more to music than hitting the proper notes without looking...and it certainly is not part of classical tradition to not look. We have fine examples of players who look and those who don't. Most just glance from time to time, but then the degree of difficulty of a piece pretty much determines how much ''looking'' takes place.

So you go ahead and memorize the fingerboard, and I’ll glance at mine. Let's both make great music...

And the violin comment you made doesn't even make sense to me...sorry. What on earth does 400 years of violin ''prove out''? That fretless instruments don't have fretmarkers?

And what about the first 150 years of violins - don't they count? (Violins have been around since the mid 1500s).


I think this debate ranges across instruments and musical styles. I know that with piano teachers, some are fine with their students looking at their hands, while others are very strict about not allowing it.

fngrpck 03-25-2010 06:51 AM

So you go ahead and memorize the fingerboard, and I’ll glance at mine. Let's both make great music...

I'll agree with you on that lj....happy picking!

fngrpck

mhs 03-25-2010 06:59 AM

As has been noted here; If you play with your eyes closed mostly, as do I, it can be very disorienting to open them, see those fingerboard markers (I'm not talking about dots, but the position things on the upper edge of the fingerboard binding), so I'd rather not have them.

I do think it's like typing, not like onions or some other examples. I have a keyboard (I think it is called "DAS Keyboard") which has no key markers. It is much easier for me to type without typos on. With my eyes closed, I rarely make 'positional' mistakes. With them open, it takes me time to adjust to markers.

I don't look down on them as 'training wheels for guitar' at all. I just got used to this mode likely because my first instrument at 7 or 8 years of age was the cello. You can only properly intonate by 'measuring' the fingerboard in your head and no amount of tape (not allowed by my teacher back then) would ever help. I also enjoy music quite a bit more and am able to reach further into whatever state I'm in playing by playing blind.

In case anyone is thinking that it's kind of rude to be onstage, not making any eye contact (I've thought this myself), then just open your eyes for awhile and act human ;) It really doesn't hurt a thing, and possibly helps. One of the great things about playing live is how the audience, the room, changes your playing because you react to them, but you can do this with your eyes closed or open.

Play2PraiseHim 03-25-2010 07:41 AM

Hey look. We have a Nylon section of this forum now.

Long813 03-25-2010 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe N (Post 2172332)
I don't know when, but as to why, I would think that it's ease of playing. A fretless guitar would be like learning to play a violin - you couldn't even begin to sound decent until you've seriously developed both your ear and a feel for the right spot to jump to.

I guess the closest thing we have to it would be slide guitar, but there you still use the frets to guide you.

Well that is my point. As all other fretless instruments were made, why did this get frets? An electric bass has frets, but it's orchestrated brother doesn't.

Also, they do make fretless guitars, they are just not that common.

ljguitar 03-25-2010 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Long813 (Post 2172441)
Well that is my point. As all other fretless instruments were made, why did this get frets? An electric bass has frets, but it's orchestrated brother doesn't.

Also, they do make fretless guitars, they are just not that common.

Hi Long…
And fretless electric bass gutiars abound as well (my gigging partner plays a 5 string fretless).

Also, fretless guitars are not just a standard acoustic or electric without frets. It is a totally different instrument which shares a shape, some design features and a tuning system (sometimes) with conventional guitars. But it is not the same instrument...

It is played far different, and is impossible to play in any sort of chordal or accompaniment fashion that even resembles standard 6 string. It is well suited to Middle Eastern and Indian Styles...




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