Is there a point where the quality of your mics outclass your Zoom Handy Recorder?
 

Hi guys,

I'm still thinking about the future of my recording set up as my Zoom H2n continues to age out. I really like Zoom H products due to their ease of use and good sound. Reading through some threads is see that Barry mentioned that he uses a Zoom H5 with external mics.

This got me thinking. Is there a point where your mics can be too good for a Zoom recorder? i.e., What if I could afford KM184s (dreaming here)? Would the mics be limited by the quality of the Zoom's mic pres, etc? Would buying mics of a certain quality be pointless?

Opinions please.

Your end result sound is directly related to all the gear in the signal chain - THD (total harmonic distortion), frequency specifications, etc.
If the mic pre-amp has a frequency drop-off at 12KHz, or a frequency bump somewhere in its range, it doesn't matter as much if the mic has a flat response or 'air' above 12K. On the other hand, a mic with a frequency bump the same as the pre-amp would be undesirable.
Also consider how you (or others) listen to the recording - using typical earbuds, or a car stereo (with the inherent noise from the car/road itself), or computer speakers, very few people would be able to hear the difference between a $100 mic and a $1000 mic.

Using external mics in combination with a Zoom recorder allows more freedom / flexibility in where you locate your mics. For example, you could use a spaced pair or ORTF technique with external mics.

I also think it's wise to have the gear in your recording chain to be of 'similar' quality / performance. At some point in mic quality, a Zoom recorder would be a limiting factor (its internal preamp and converter). I've used my Zoom H4 with external mics in the $150-$500 price range. By the time I started getting more expensive mics I moved beyond the Zoom level of performance.

Thanks for the responses guys.

It's funny the more I think about this the more I want to just buy another Zoom H2n when mine dies... :)

My opinion -- with anything H4n and earlier, the preamps are poor. Thin, no low end, no subjective "size." Past that, the pres are much better and will do justice to good microphones.

What's the best acoustic guitar recording you have heard using a Zoom with external mikes? The potential with a zoom is at least that good.

I have no experience with an H2 or the lower end Zoom products, I've used the H4n and have an H6 now (thinking of upgraded to the H8 or F series soon). The H6 was a noticeable step up in noise and sound quality from the H4n. If you're talking about the H5/H6 or newer, I don't think you'd find that the preamps limit your mics. There's certainly the whole "weakest link" issue, but it's not like the Zoom preamps are so bad that they'd limit what you'd get out of better mics, the mics will still matter. Actually one of the biggest benefits of external mics is the increase in placement options. Mic choices gets somewhat subjective, but it's easy to hear the difference between being stuck with XY and being able to do spaced pairs, or other micing techniques.

I posted a comparison between preamps a while back here - can't locate it right now. What I recall was that all of them sounded "fine", and it you just listened to the Zoom, it sounded good. If you compared the Zoom preamps to my "better" preamps (same mics), there was a small but noticeable difference. The Zoom seemed a little "flatter" and less dimensional or something. I could hear it, and people listening here had no problem picking out the Zoom blind, as the "lesser" preamp. But that's comparing preamps, not exactly what you're asking.

I record all my You Tube videos with a Zoom H6 and various external mics, so check out my you tube channel if you want (link below, I think) and you can hear at least one person's example of H6+external mics. I wouldn't hold them up as perfect recordings, but you can see if you think they are adequate or not as one example. If I recorded these with better gear, presumably they'd sound better if you A/B'd them, but since you can only hear the Zoom, you'd just have to decide if they sound good enough, or if you think they are obviously limited by the Zoom.

Thanks so much Doug!

Hey Doug,
Some nice advice here!!
The above comment is pretty much what I heard with my H4n, plus a noise level that could also have been my fault with operating. At any rate I went with a mic pre amp in the signal chain.....a Rane DMS 22, which helped a lot as I stayed with the H4n. I now use the two XLR inputs and have two Shure condenser mics....KSM 137's (these run about $299 each retail)which go along with portable panels and a different recording room than years ago. That's how I've worked out of my original recording.....still rudimentary, but seems to give me what I need for quality. Having really good guitars at the start of the chain, to me, is essential and I've worked at that as well over the years.
You're MUCH more tech savvy than me, so you could stay in place, so to speak, or really take steps upward in the effort.
best,
Fred

When I record audio, like for a CD, I use "better" gear. Better mics than I have in my video room - Brauner, Schoeps and Royer mics (generally) - Great River and AEA preamps, Apogee converters, and so on. But that's in my music studio. I usually shoot video in a spare bedroom, and frankly I don't want to deal with all that at the same time as I'm dealing with cameras, lights, and so on. For me, the Zoom is more than good enough for You Tube. I save the "upward" steps for audio recording where it's really about the audio quality.

Like a metal chain, an audio chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
But there might be other reasons to buy mics "too good" for your current setup.

Back in the 1970s I bought these 2 Sennheiser MD-441s new for IIRC $250 each, today a new one sells for $900.
When I bought these I knew they were the strongest link in my audio chain, so it could be argued that buying them wasted money.
But being young, I knew I had time to upgrade the other links in my audio chain, and that good mics (taken care of) can last decades.

As a plus, today even though they're dynamic mics they still sound like fine studio condensers - read some google reviews.
They are killer mics for live performing.

Also, now being vintage high-end German mics, they hold value well ... one owner, excellent condition, all original case candy.

For me, buying fine mics was the opposite of wasting money by overspending.

Attachment 43979

And great quality it is!!
Thanks for that additional input!
Just an FYI, I was pointing my comment to the OP, who's also Doug, so sorry for any confusion there!!! Best,
Fred

My wife has this issue when my son's around - too many Dougs :-)

The Zoom, especially H5/6 is a great part of an upgrade strategy. You can start with alone, upgrade with external mics. Then move to using it as an interface to the computer and learn your way around a DAW, then finally upgrade to a better interface. And the great thing is nothing has to get thrown away, the Zoom's still useful for portable recording even after you're "replaced" it!

There are a number number of aspects to consider reflected in the larger picture, surrounding this question.

Ultimately the traditional notions of (the weakest link) and (you tend to get what pay for ) are aspects that do factor in
BUT in recording as noted, many non electronic factors can actually have more affect on the sound Like player, performance, room, and mic placement..

As far as larger picture questions : have you changed your thoughts posted in your other thread about learning new equipment being an inspiration killer ? And now you are thinking of upgrading ?
If so :
What external mic's , and playback system do you currently use ?

Hi Kev,

Excellent questions. Considering I have a few threads going that may seem contradictory, I should clarify. Please keep in mind this is all in the future for now and I find myself going back and forth regarding my whole approach to this topic.

I would like to stay with a Zoom H product for the ease of use and good sound. A couple of dials, a couple of menu items and then I hit the record button! That I can handle and it currently does not get in the way of the music for me. So I was thinking about the Zoom H5 or H6.

But you may ask: Why external mics? Isn't that just another hassle? This may seem surprising but I actually enjoy fiddling with mic placement very much. I have a lot of respect the art and science of mic placement so have the flexibility to play around with mic placement more makes me excited. Plus it sounds like external mics would an improvement over the built in Zoom mics.

But yeah what mics then? I'd like to go with SDMs and I could swing about $2000 CDN for a matched pair. But I was looking at the Shure KSM137s that Fred uses, which would come in well below my mic budget. Anybody have thoughts on the KSMs?

Playback system will be severely limited. I'll be using headphones for the forseeable future (4 of us in the house and space is limited). This is something I could upgrade though. I have some Sennheiser closed backs right now that are fine for tracking. It would be nice to have some open backs for playback.