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-   -   Parlour project - beginner DIY! (https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178424)

Fliss 03-04-2010 11:13 AM

Parlour project - beginner DIY!
 
I should say from the start that I have next to no woodworking skills, and my luthiery knowledge is about the same (I did resurrect a dead mandolin a couple of years ago, with help from some kind folks on Mandolin Cafe!) But I wanted to get a vintage parlour, and thought it might be fun to buy one that needs some work, and use it as a learning experience. On the plus side, I'm aware of my ignorance and I am good at listening and taking advice, so I'll be grateful for any guidance and support anyone would care to offer :)

My project parlour is a little beauty that I picked up via e-bay for around the price of a fairly average/cheap hard case. It needs quite a lot of work, but it is very pretty! I love the shape of the fretboard end and the purfling rosette:

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/1705/p1070786.jpg

From that pic, you might spot something significant that's missing - frets! I'm told that taking the frets out is a horrible job, so the good news is that I don't have to do that.

Here's a pic of the stunning flame maple back:

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/8909/p1070793.jpg

The more observant viewers may have noticed something else that's missing - tuners! The seller did provide them, but with the recommendation that it will need new ones. The old ones are lovely, but they just look a bit worn, so I can see why I might be better replacing them. Here they are:

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/213/p1070801.jpg

A couple of other things that are missing: bridge and tailpiece. The seller reckoned the top is cedar - what do you folks think?

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/4138/p1070782.jpg

More pics to follow!

Fliss

Fliss 03-04-2010 11:25 AM

Another thing that's missing is a section of binding on the back:

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/8909/p1070795b.jpg

But the body is basically pretty solid (though very light!) and the neck join looks good:

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/6053/p1070792m.jpg

I'm not totally sure about the neck angle yet, but as far as I can tell, the fretboard is dead flat. Here's a side view:

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/7686/p1070784u.jpg

So, all in all, a nice looking little parlour, possibly made in Germany around 1950 (?) beautiful wood, and it looks well-made. The real questions are: is it too big a job for a beginner to tackle? (I'm hoping not, with a little help!) and - will it need a neck re-set, because if it does, I think that might make it too big a job.

It definitely needs:
- new tuners
- frets
- a patch repair to the edging
- bridge
- tailpiece
- a new nut (the nut is missing)
- strings (possibly stating the obvious but I need to enumerate these things!)
- and it would benefit from a polish to remove some scratches from the finish. I don't know what kind of varnish it would have been, but as you can see in the photos, there's quite a high gloss finish on the back and sides, and apparantly no finish at all on the top.

I think I've located a tailpiece and possibly bridge. I'll welcome any comments and advice, particularly on things like where to find guidance on how to do the jobs that needs doing, and what sequence I should approach them in.

Fliss

J.R. Rogers 03-04-2010 12:34 PM

Fliss,
That's a beautiful little guitar to try to restore. I really like the fretboard end. The neck and fretboard looks nice and flat. I'll be watching this one. :up:

JR

arie 03-04-2010 02:35 PM

Were it mine, I would start like this:

fretboard, frets, and nut
tuners
bridge and tailpiece
binding
finish
final setup

1. Assuming that all the bracing and kerfing is intact and not loose, I'd dress the fretboard up, check and re-size all the fret slots, install suitable frets, and dress them.

2. Fit up a suitable nut -rough it into shape but don't cut the slots just yet.

3. Locate suitable tuners, (lmi has some vintage style things that look old but really aren't) and install.

4. Get an adjustable bridge and a trapeze tail piece and install.

5. Clean up that area of missing binding and graft something suitable in. Cut the seams of the donor piece at an angle and glue up with ca.

6. Deal with the finish. Seal up the raw wood with something like diluted shellac or equivalent. Buff, polish or do whatever but I would probably keep the original finish on it. It most likely is laquer.

7. String it up and cut the nut slots.

8. Make all final adjustments and enjoy.


The above assumes that you want a playing guitar with a reasonable amount of work and are not going for a fully restored museum piece.

Fliss 03-04-2010 03:47 PM

J.R. - thanks for your nice comments :) I can't promise that this will be a quick project, as I'm going to be learning pretty much from scratch, but I will update as I go along.

Arie, thank you so much for setting out a programme for me, that makes a lot of sense. The bracing etc all seems very solid, so it ooks like the next thing I need to do is find out about frets.

Fliss

martinedwards 03-05-2010 04:03 AM

I'm in work and can't see the pics (shouldn't be looking at all, but still!!) but from your descriptions it sounds doable.

the SCARY bits of this lark are bending sides and cutting fret solts, neither of which you need to do.

things to beware of?

support when you are fitting the frets.

support under the neck or you could snap off the headstock.

the awkward ones are the frets on the fingerboard on the top. hammer these in, with the guitar sitting on a table top and you are likely to smash right through the top!

either get a bent bar that toy can clamp to the bench so that it fits through the soundhole and supports directly under fretboard, or else hold the whole thing up in the air and support it with your fingers inside the top. each tap with the hammer will make the whole thing recoil downwards against your hand, but as it's up in the air it wont collapse the top. it'll take ten times as many taps with the hammer, but it's safer......

of course you could invest in a a Jaws fret tool,
http://www.stewmac.com/catalog/images_1lg/4274_1lg.jpg but its $130 plus post from stewmac

martinedwards 03-05-2010 10:29 AM

Now I see the pics....

PM me your addy & I'll send you an offcut of rosewood binding.

I MIGHT even put a bit of a curve on it for you............

Wolf 03-05-2010 11:37 AM

To tell if it's cedar in the top, smell it. Cedar smells like old pensils, wich's made of it. My seagull smells gooood!

Fliss 03-05-2010 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinedwards (Post 2149942)
...PM me your addy & I'll send you an offcut of rosewood binding.

I MIGHT even put a bit of a curve on it for you............

Thanks Martin, that's very kind! PM sent :) Thanks also for the advice about the fretting, that's very useful.

Wolf, it doesn't have a strong smell, but it does have something of that kind of smell, so it might be.

I've been having a look on Frets.com, which is full of useful advice and instructions, so I now have a much clearer idea of what's involved in putting the frets in. I think that's going to be the most difficult part of the job, so perhaps it's best that it comes first. But I decided it would be sensible to get some professional advice, so I'm going to take it to see locally-based luthier Matthew Bascetta (who made my redwood/walnut parlour) and get a little help/advice from him :)

At the moment, one of my big concerns is that the cost of tools to do the frets might be so high as to make it more sensible for me to simply pay Matthew to do that part of the job, but I'd like to try and do it if I can. Matthew will also help me to source some of the bits and pieces I need such as the tuners - he does use LMI, so he could easily obtain the ones arie mentioned.

Fliss

martinedwards 03-05-2010 03:45 PM

Don't worry about the fretting tools being expensive.....

a plastic faced hammer (from a GOOD tool store......maybe even B&Q!) will knock the frets in without risking denting them. a small block of wood would do the job too...... but a regular metal faced hammer will do the job fine and it's what most folks who hammer them in use.

to level the tops, go through ALL the flat files in B&Q. many will a SLIGHT curve to 'em. choose the flattest and use it to scuff off the tops of all the frets. once ALL of them have been roughened at the tip of the crown you know that you've got down to any low ones.

then a long (no less than 8") sanding block and fine wet & dry sand paper. buff the tops shiny and get rid of the file marks. the long block stops you filing one fret lower than the others and messing up all that good file work.

Now you SHOULD recrown the frets using a u shaped file. search ebay for a crowning file... about £30 inc post. BUT you can get away without it. buff them along the fret with 0000 grade steel wool and it'll DO. it's BETTER to recrown them but it'll DO.

a recrowning file wouldn't be a bad thing to have anyway, one level of worn frets without replacing them and you've saved the cost of it.

Larry Pattis 03-05-2010 05:17 PM

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/1705/p1070786.jpg

I'm fascinated by the cut-out section of the upper fingerboard, since this is something I had done (recessed, not completely cut away) on the upper fingerboard of some recent custom guitars:

http://www.larrypattis.com/webphotos/JP_RoseRosette.jpg


I did this so I would not hit my thumb/thumbnail on the frets (or wood) if my right hand was way up over the soundhole, playing to get a very sweet sound.

Again, I am fascinated to see this on the very old parlor guitar.

Cool.

Fliss 03-05-2010 06:09 PM

Martin, thanks very much for the useful info. This is exactly the kind of thing I need!

Larry, I've seen this kind of fretboard cutaway on quite a lot of pictures of old parlours. I've seen something similar on one or two Ovations too! I can't understand why it isn't more common, I think it's a really good idea. I'm looking forward to getting to play this little parlour, as I tend to like playing in that position too, for the same reason, so I think if this little parlour turns out to have a pleasing tone, it may well end up being a very good player for me!

Fliss

Coke_zero 03-05-2010 06:36 PM

Woo another parlour. Glad you decided to join in Fliss. I would PM some of the guys from here and maybe join (if not a member already) www.luthiersforum.com. Some of them have brought back guitars 100x worse off than that so you are in with a good job there. Hope you has as much fun as I have making my own guitar.

Just for your info Fliss, there are two guys on eBay who sell woods, tools and things like binding etc. If you search "luthier" or "tonewood" a lot of stuff pings up. Just don't touch the dreadnought mould I'm after ;).

SnoSkiDrew 03-05-2010 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinedwards (Post 2149670)

the awkward ones are the frets on the fingerboard on the top. hammer these in, with the guitar sitting on a table top and you are likely to smash right through the top!

One quick question from a no-experience noob--- since it would indeed be risky to hammer in the frets while the fretboard is glued to the guitar, wouldn't it make a lot more sense to cut the slots and insert the frets before gluing on the fretboard?


EDIT: Just saw that her parlor guitar has the fretboard already glued on.. doh! I guess my thinking would generally be correct in a "from-scratch" build?

martinedwards 03-06-2010 01:09 AM

from a scratch build DEFINITELY!!

I've only put the frets in after attaching the neck once.

NEVER again!!

Kitchen Guitars 03-06-2010 06:47 AM

There she is! Sweet. I really think you will end up with something special! Are you going to go with a standard Bridge or recreate the Trapeze?
If you are using a bridge with pins you will need to install a Bridge plate.

ANYTHING you see at Stew Mac Look around for in your local hardware!
Also, look into a company called Rockler. Maybe you have something like it on your side of the pond? I just got a set of Micro mesh pads (they sand and polish frets to 12,000 grit polish. Rockler was half the price of Stew Mac and Rockler can be expensive!

Are you going to just even out the back binding and splice in? Is it Rosewood or Walnut binding? Are there black lines in the binding at all? If its more of a clear dark brown it may be Walnut or stained Mahogany. Save the peices you take off so you have them to attempt a match.
If you had a binding cutter it would likely be easier to replace the whole thing as aposed to attempting to match it. But doing it by hand I would attempt the splice.
Looks like Spruce, not Cedar. I wouldn't put money on the bet though :) BTW the restoration project I just told you of has the same fretboard!
Is there any fretboard damage from the fret removal? If there is Stew Mac just did a newsletter on how to fix the chips.
Well Fliss, Good luck with her! Feel free to drop me a line anytime.

Fliss 03-07-2010 03:55 PM

Thanks guys :)

CZ, don't fret (if you'll pardon the pun ;) ) your dreadnought mould is safe from me!

John - thanks, I will definitely take you up on your offer and PM you with some questions :) I'm not going to try and replace the bridge with a fixed bridge, I'm aiming to use an old tailpiece from another old parlour, similar to what it would originally have had, but if that doesn't work out for any reason I'll probably look into the option of the trapeze style tailpiece. With the binding, I thought it was rosewood, but looking at it after what you said, I couldn't swear to it not being walnut. I am aiming to splice it rather than take off what's there and replace it all; it's on the back so won't show too much, and it shoudl be possible to get it reasonably neat.

I confess I am feeling more and more excited about this little beauty. For most of this week, it's been sitting on a stand in the living room where I can see it, and I just love it. I keep picking it up and holding it as though to play it, and even fingering the fretboard as though I was playing it. It feels as though it will be so comfortable to play, I'm really looking forward to being able to play it for real.

Fliss

Coke_zero 03-07-2010 04:08 PM

Have you started on it or are you waiting for tools and equipment? On a side note, I lost the mould, someone sniped me with 10 seconds to go. I guess I'll be making a lot of sawdust again when it's time to start number #2.

Fliss 03-07-2010 04:16 PM

Sorry to hear you lost the mould. All I can say is, it wasn't me!!!!

I'm waiting for a few things, but mostly waiting till I've seen Matthew, which will probably be Saturday. I want to get his view on it, and then make a decision on whether I can realistically attempt the frets myself or whether I should get him to do that part of it. I'm confident I can do the rest, with a little guidance.

Fliss

Coke_zero 03-07-2010 04:27 PM

Sounds good. Have you checked out the inside to make sure the bracing and bridge plate is solid? Do you plan on stripping the finish and having a go at French polishing? I can't wait till I can have a go at that.

Fliss 03-07-2010 04:36 PM

I'm planning to keep the original finish if possible, and just polish it up a bit, but I don't yet know enough about it. I wouldn't mind learning how to do the French polishing and having a go at that. I've checked the inside as far as I can and it all seems solid, but again I'll know more when Matthew's given it the once over. My initial intention was to play around with this one, as it isn't valuable, so doesn't matter too much if I mess it up, but I like it too much to want to mess it up!!!

Fliss

Kitchen Guitars 03-08-2010 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fliss (Post 2152682)
I'm planning to keep the original finish if possible, and just polish it up a bit, but I don't yet know enough about it. I wouldn't mind learning how to do the French polishing and having a go at that. I've checked the inside as far as I can and it all seems solid, but again I'll know more when Matthew's given it the once over. My initial intention was to play around with this one, as it isn't valuable, so doesn't matter too much if I mess it up, but I like it too much to want to mess it up!!!

Fliss

Heyyyyy Stop it. Its a perfect starter. I have found that unknown steps seem like Rocket Science till they show themselves as a part of a process. Just it's a process with 300 steps and 3 to 7 ways to do each thing. See? Its not thatttttt daunting :) Do it, have fun.

Fliss 03-09-2010 12:55 AM

:) Thanks for the encouragement! I forgot to answer your question about fretboard damage. The answer is no, it looks good to me, it's very smooth and the fret slots are very tidy.

Fliss

Kitchen Guitars 03-12-2010 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fliss (Post 2154318)
:) Thanks for the encouragement! I forgot to answer your question about fretboard damage. The answer is no, it looks good to me, it's very smooth and the fret slots are very tidy.

Fliss

Well there you go. Taking them out is far worse than putting them in.
BTW I am short on experience, but for what its worth; I have the drill press stuff for putting in frets (with the drill off) and I have the fancy upholstery hammer. Give me the hammer any day. I put the frets in my Parlor almost a year ago. They're fine.
This
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting...retBender.html
and this
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting...ng_Nipper.html

are a must.
There are specialty files. For around the cost of one Luthier file check this out. I bought a hobby Mini file set. A few types that fit in the handle when not in use.
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?p...ter=file%20set

Fliss 03-12-2010 06:24 AM

Thanks John! I have access to a set of needle files, as Kevin uses those for his model making, so I'm hoping they might be useful for this.

The other two gadgets look very pricey - are they really a must, for a one-off project? The fretboard is flat, not radiused, so do I need to bend the frets? Is there something else that could cut the frets and/or tangs?

Fliss

Kitchen Guitars 03-12-2010 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fliss (Post 2157837)
Thanks John! I have access to a set of needle files, as Kevin uses those for his model making, so I'm hoping they might be useful for this.

The other two gadgets look very pricey - are they really a must, for a one-off project? The fretboard is flat, not radiused, so do I need to bend the frets? Is there something else that could cut the frets and/or tangs?

Fliss

I am sure the tang cutters would save you hours but you can do without.
Also, you could maybe bend the Frets cheaper, but again time and accuracy count for how much? The flat fretboard still needs a touch of bow in the frets to "spring" them in. You could likely emulate the concept with stuff you make.
Making the tools is half the fun. At A.S.I.A I got to look at a bunch of Stew Mac's Prototypes. We all start somewhere!

Fliss 03-12-2010 03:32 PM

I don't mind spending a bit of time and finding workarounds; I can see that the right tools would be fantastic if I was intending to do this a lot - and perhaps that's one of the questions I need to ask myself. I do keep an eye open for other old parlours on ebay, and I could see that it would be very easy to get bitten by the bug :)

I got a parcel in the post today from Martin Edwards (thanks Martin!) with some binding and other potentially useful bits and pieces - the rosewood binding looks like it will be a perfect match, and he's even put a bend in it for me!

Fliss

Kitchen Guitars 03-13-2010 06:45 AM

Wonderful. Its a shame shipping is such a cash bummer from me to you.
Thats great Martin helped you out. When I did my Parlor I had no Luthier tools, books or info. Man is my head full since then. No wonder the folks that have been at it for 10-20 years tend to mumble a lot :). If you dig up the Brazilian Parlor Project post I have all of those detailed photo's (first part is messed up with a slide show thing I have not figured out how to deal with) and whether it worked or not. Lots of Homemade solutions to the restoration process and when my ideas were stupid.
I tried my first bend on Ebony Binding. I'll use the sticks for fill and inlay. I gotta say it was a "After the Prom" feeling when I got the first Mahogany Binding to bend! I came out of the basement yapping about it. The kids looked at me like I was nuts.
The first one will be more expensive to fix than the value. Just like fishing. You buy a boat and $500 in tackle so you don't have to pay for fish meat. Even more nuts, we just say hello and let the fish go.
Get hooked on restoration. Beats buying a Harley and terrorizing Bingo Halls.

Fliss 03-13-2010 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamaha Junkie (Post 2158989)
...Get hooked on restoration. Beats buying a Harley and terrorizing Bingo Halls.

:lol: I quite like the idea of the Harley and the bingo halls. I could get an old leather gilet and a few tattoos and ask people to call me Flick...

Well, I've just got back from my visit to Matthew, which lasted two hours, as any visit to Matthew inevitably does! My head is now totally buzzing with ideas, so I know exactly what you mean about all that kind of thing. He gave me some brilliant advice and guidance on how to do the various things I need to do, and I am now beginning to believe I can do this! He's also going to send off for some of the things I need, and will even lend me some things so I don't need to buy them, which is extremely kind of him.

The tools Matthew is going to get for me are a ground nipper, a mill smooth file and a tricorner file (on which Matthew is going to grind the corners for me) and he's also going to source the vintage-style tuners (from StewMac - here's a link to them: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/G...d_Peghead.html ) and the fretwire and nut blank. For the other tools I'll need, I'm going to get some form a DIY store (including a plastic hammer if I can find one) and use some of the things we already have, such as needle files for the nut - Kevin uses these for model making, so I can just use his.

Matthew reckons my little project parlour probably was originally nylon strung, so I'm going to stick with that rather than try to convert it to steel strings. I don't have a nylon strung guitar, so that will make it sufficiently different from my other guitars to give it a role in my herd :)

In terms of the finish, I'm going to give it just a light French Polish - I'm not going to take off the finish where it has it, just go over it whcih will even out the colour a little, and put a few coats on the top. This is something else I'll need to learn from scratch, but I understand there are some good tutorials on the web, and I got some good tips from Matthew includng the judicious use of walnut oil!

Fliss

patticake 03-14-2010 04:09 AM

this is so exciting! remember to take a couple pics at each step so we can sort of join you on your journey :)


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