12 string - picking directions etc.
 

We read that Rickenbacker strung their electric 12 strings with the lower octave string on the left of the pair (looking at the top) so the sound wasn't too bright - and most if not all 12 string acoustics come the other way round, with the lower octave string of each octave pair on the right.

So, if you flatpick down on an acoustic 12, you usually hit the high octave string first, if you pick up, you hit the lower octave first, and if you pick 'down up down up' you alternate. On chords, I guess this doesn't matter much with a big sound jangly 12 - but it seems to me that a scale run with alternate direction picking on a birght 12 (eg a male Guild) is likely to produce brighter sounds on every 2nd note. On the other hand, with fingerpicking the thumb mostly hits the higher octave strings first, while the fingers mostly pick up and hit the lower octaves.

So what? Well, does this suggest that for flatpicking tunes on a 12 you might sound better picking down all the time, and for fingerpicking you might try to play all the octave sets with thumb downstrokes - or do you think any inconsistency of sound doesn't really matter?

12 string - picking directions etc.

My 12 string guitars have the octave string in the traditional position. That is, octave string first, which is where I prefer it. Doesn't sound 'right' the other way.

I fingerpick all my instruments using my nails as picks. My thumb is responsible for the E, A, and D string pairs, and thus easily hits the octave string first in a given string pair (course) all the time. Since the guitar is designed to be plucked in pairs, this produces the expected tones. Depending on the song/piece/line I do also slip my thumb down to pick the 'gG' course too. Think intros and soloes. But for just a quick hitter, my index finger does just fine with a normal upward stroke. I also tune my 12 strings down a semi-tone to 'd#D#' (et cetera) in 'standard' tuning intervals. Been playing 12 string acoustics since the 60s when they were mostly tuned to 'dD'. Old habits die hard.

I use a G7th Newport 12 string capo with the compensated string pad. I capo on the first fret to bring the guitar up to 'standard' tuning, but only if I need to play with other standard-tuned instruments. This capo has a saw-tooth pad and will not work with non-traditional string set-ups like Rickenbacker. Also really doesn't need any re-tuning when applying it properly or removing it again.

I know some people prefer the Rickenbacker set-up, but I'm not one of them. Taylor recently introduced the backwards Rickenbacker style stringing on one of its models, maybe a Grand Concert small-sized one. Nothing says you can't cut a new nut and string it anyway you want for any 12 string. After all it still has 12 tuning pegs available.

Doyle Dykes prefers his 12 strings to have the backwards stringing but only on the bass 'eE' course. Saw it in an excellent video of him playing a Taylor 12 strung otherwise traditionally. He specifically remarked on it.

Not sure most non-players can actually identify a 12 string when they hear it anyway. Or even see it in a Rickenbacker headstock.

I have a 5 string tenor Ukulele that I had them change to octave first on the double slot for a 'gG' course pair. This produces a high string first contact which preserves the typical ukulele re-entrant sound with {gG, C, E, A}. On a tradtional 4 string, the tuning is {g, C, E, A}. Some players opt for a low 'G' string, changing the sound. I get to have my 'gG' string cake and eat it too.

Don
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Thanks Don, that's very helpful. I'm currently trying to sort out useful tutor books for 12 string DADGAD, just because I love the sound. The problem I've encountered is that many DADGAD books are written for 6 strings, with a lot of barre chords - and much 12 string advice says something like 'play as many 'open' chords as you can and avoid barres, it sounds better'. Also, the better 12 string books appear written by finger pickers. My nails are much too thin and brittle for that to work well. A flatpick works better for me. I guess I'll just have to juggle the tutor books, and/or maybe adopt some sort of 'hybrid' picking with a finger pick or two. All good fun...

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I play with a flat pick and cross pick to imitate the arpeggios of fingerpicking. Sometimes the octaves blend the same way picking down or up, and sometimes they don’t. Either way, a down pick is different from an up pick, and rhythm players take advantage of that. For instance, a steady barrage of down strokes puts the obstinate in ostinato.

I guess cross picking could be very useful in DADGAD, must brush that up.

There are slight differences in sound depending on whether a player is picking downwards or upwards, but to me, the difference in sound is not terribly noticeable.

Most of the time when I play a 12-string, I use a thumb pick and bare fingers with short nails. So my thumb is always picking downward. My nails are always picking upward.

It's a bit of a two-way street. ;)

I've been playing a 12-string for a long time; I just don't think about issues like this. To me it's kind of a "form follows function" kind of thing. The guitar makes sounds consistent with how we have to play as human beings, with that opposable thumb thing.

I do play a 12-string at times using a flat pick. It's a somewhat different sound from using thumb and fingers, but I still like it so I still play that way.

- Glenn

12 string - picking directions etc.

maxr,

Whoever recommended not using barre chords on a 12 string is not wrong in my book. However there are workarounds if you take the time and effort. Here are a couple of suggestions, both involving the key of E for 12 string guitar.

The first example is to eliminate barre chords by substituting another key. The second is to make chords from unusual formations in the same key. Both create more open chords and less barre chords. You can count the F#m chords in both examples as a half barre, and I did suggest a partial barre in the second.

It might not hurt to work things out on a six string first before transferring your work to a 12 string. I play a lot of songs on either 6 or 12 depending on what guitar I have in hand at the moment. Makes for some nice surprises. Like the Ventures "Walk Don't Run" done as/on a solo 12 string (without the drum solo part of course.)


Example 1.

Chords for "My Back Pages" (Byrds/Dylan) are key of E.
Thus, E, Esus4, C#m, G#m, A, and B7; for the verse and E, A , E, A, B7, E for the fourth line which acts as a chorus. Couple of ugly barre chords in there, plus the C#m, G#m easily followed by Barre A @5 is too many barre chords in a row for a 12 string. The Esus4 is done quickly adding and removing the pinkie from the 'a' note on string 3.

Transposing to key of C yields chords of C, Csus4, Am, Em, F, and G, with the fourth line as C, F, C, F, G, C.
No real barre chords unless you want to extend the F from 4 to 6 strings. And the Csus4 is simply adding the F note on the correct beat which can be done with either moving the ring finger from 'c' (string 5) to the 'f' note (string 4) and back, or just using the pinkie to fret that 'f' note quickly.

Note that verse chords aren't necessarily in the same order as played. And I believe the third line uses the same chords but in slightly different timing sequence from the 1st and 2nd. Shouldn't be that hard to work out. And while in the original key using the Esus4 sounds better, the key of C is much easier in which to play, and the Csus4 kind of grew on me a bit, so I like it now.


Example 2:

Chords for "World Without Love" (Peter and Gordon/Lennon-McCartney) are in key of E.

Verse chords are E, G#m, C#m, E, Am, E, F#m, B7, E, C. B7, (E) . Second verse repeats extending to E7 .
Chorus is Am, E, Am, C, B7 (E).

This time we have the same awkward barre chords of G#m, and C#m, plus an F#m extra.
I tried the key conversion, but I didn't like it. So I decided to fudge for open notes while losing barre chords.

The G#m is only held for a couple of quick notes, so I use a quick A7 short barre formation on the 1st fret (like the partial barre of A7 done on the second fret), and maybe muting the f# note on the 'e' string a bit. The important notes are the {c# g# b} on the 4th through 2nd strings. Big thing is not to strike the A string at all. Followed by a quick change to an Amaj7 formation (again without the A string) for the C#m. Thus {e, g#, c#, e} for the 4th through 1st string spelling out the C#m chord with the chord notes (c#, e, g#} with an extra 'e' to top it off, hinting strongly at the key note of 'e'. Again, do not strike the A string on either of these.

The brevity and awkwardness of the use of the G#m chord means you could probably skip it if it suits your ears OK. Just account for the tempo. Can always add it back in later.

If you make your A chord formation with fingers fretting in the order of middle on 'e' 4th string, index on 'a' third string, and ring on 'c#' on second string, this is easier to accomplish. (Adding the pinkie to 'g' can make an A7) With this formation, the Amaj7 is more familiar and is easier to fret by simply sliding the middle and ring fingers up from the 3 note G# formation on the 1st fret with this formation. (Or to go from A to Amaj7 by simply sliding the index finger down to 'G#' on the 3rd string. And you do need the A string for that Amaj7 chord formation.)

In the event, this leaves more open strings to sound and no barre chords unless you want to make one for the F#m chord. But if you only make it with strings 4 to 1 fretted, {f# a c#, f#} you can always add the open string A note to this and maybe even the open E string note to make a convoluted F#m7 chord depending on what your ears will accept and want.

And for using a pick (if you don't want to fingerpick), you can always pick out arpeggios (and maybe some loose melody notes) as you are going along. The resulting play will be about as effective as fingerpicking, and should sound great with some good pick work.

There's more than one way to skin a cat, or to arrange a song.

Hopefully I put the sharps in the right places and didn't mess up the chord structures too badly.
Sorry if this has rambled a bit.

Be well and play well,

Don
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Hey Don,

That's an interesting tidbit about Doyle Dykes and the eE reversed; I never knew that.

Fwiw, I've long thought that I'd like more a pronounced, bigger bass E but never wanted to go through the trouble of a new nut cut, especially since my 12er plays so freakin well I'm afraid to change anything. But this is certainly food for thought! :D

Edward

12 string - picking directions etc.

Edward,

Here a link to the DD youtube I referrenced:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlOs7gW2TNQ




Enjoy,

Don

Ooooh, thanks, man!! :D

Edward

Thanks All - Don, I'll work through your useful comments in detail later when I get a chance, looks good.

I do tend to down pick on my 12 for that reason.

I'm probably one of the few electric 12-string players here, and not surprisingly, Roger McGuinn and the Byrds' sound on the reverse octave strung Rickenbacker is an influence on that. I flat pick almost all the time. When playing chords and crosspicking I think I tend to upstroke the trebles and downstroke the bass strings, but then I'm too busy playing to check.

But at least early on, when playing lead melodic lines I tended to upstroke with my flat pick. Nowadays on my electric I have a Janglebox when I try to channel McGuinn, and that add sustain, but before that hitting the fundamental note a bit more helped get closer to the sound I was aiming for.

Another trick for those that don't want so much octave string in the mix is to use more unisons and fewer octave courses. Leadbelly and Steve Tibbetts both use fewer unisons, and yet still sound "like a 12-string." This may require a new nut however.

As GlennWillow points out above, good clean picking can reduce any balance issues between the paired strings. Whenever I hear his 12-string playing I admire that.

I own 2 hand-made custom 12strings and I fingerpick on both.
Since most of the time the thumb plays a downstroke and the other fingers go up-stroke I have both guitar strung with the 2 G strings inverted so that the index catches the higher octave string before the lower one. Having it the standard way would mean that the high octave G string would always be covered by the bigger sister making it sound faint or weak.
Having those G strings inverted changed dramatically (for the better) the sound I make when I fingerpick.