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-   -   How Do You Move From Guitarist To Musician? (https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251829)

JonPR 05-17-2012 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paikon (Post 3043254)
in order to be an expressive guitar player you should first be a technical player

Right. The technical command is the start of the process, not the end ;).

You don't have to be incredibly skilled technically, however, to be expressive. You just to play within your limits. Even a relative beginner can be an expressive player, and play with feeling. They only have to be in full command of just what it is they need to play - it might just be a couple of chords.

There also needs to be a kind of "window of opportunity" above that. IOW you need a little spare technique beyond what you're playing, to enable you to add expression as you feel it, in the way you articulate what you play. So you don't play at the limits of your technique, but a little below it, to leave room for freedom of expression.

Of course, you have to know what it is you want to express in the first place! You have to feel the tune or the song is saying something you yourself want to say. It's not about having some kind of feeling in yourself, and then trying to express it through music. Nor is it about trying to enter the mind of the composer and guess what he/she was trying to say. It's about feeling an affinity for the tune, that you recognise what it's saying. (That's probably why you want to play it in the first place.) You understand it, because you feel the same way (often or sometimes). It's something you can't put into words (otherwise it wouldn't be music!;),), but it feels "right".

It's also important to stress that you are not in the grip of any emotion while playing. You have to remain fully in control. There may be intense emotions communicated by the music, but they are achieved through very small and subtle techniques, that require consummate conscious control.
It's like being actor: an actor can communicate intense emotions without actually feeling anything at all at that moment; he needs the complete control in order to perform the techniques that will communicate the emotion accurately. If he wants to communicate sadness, it's no good if he breaks down and cries. He'll just look like someone crying.

IOW, you have to "keep the channel clear". Real emotion will clog it up. The emotion in the music will only get through if you remain somewhat detached.

It might seem counter-intuitive to want to minimize emotion, to play music effectively, but it's necessary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJRjE...feature=relmfu

mc1 05-17-2012 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Fixit eh (Post 3042809)
How do I move towards musicianship?

take up another instrument. ;)

as for becoming a better guitar player, i'd suggest recording yourself and listening as unbiasedly as possible, as well as practicing.

there is an interesting article about maximizing practice time here:
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=248191

JonPR 05-17-2012 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mc1 (Post 3043295)
take up another instrument. ;)

Yes! Great advice. (Not instead of guitar, of course. As well as.)

Paikon 05-17-2012 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonPR (Post 3043286)
Right. The technical command is the start of the process, not the end ;).

I agree with your whole comment but my comment was targeting the OP based on his yt videos and skills
IMO the philosophical approach or if you want the wisdom of an experienced player about musicianship, technique , expression is not really helping a player with questions like the one of the OPs

Christos

JonPR 05-17-2012 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paikon (Post 3043319)
I agree with your whole comment but my comment was targeting the OP based on his yt videos and skills
IMO the philosophical approach or if you want the wisdom of an experienced player about musicianship, technique , expression is not really helping a player with questions like the one of the OPs

Christos

Fair point :).

Hotspur 05-17-2012 10:13 AM

I would define a musician as someone who speaks the language of music fluently.

(Caveat: I know I harp on this a lot, but I can't understate the impact on my own development.)

You don't lean to speak the language of music by drilling your fingers. It's something that happens in your mind: the ability to manipulate musical ideals fully in your head.

This can seem sort of foreign to somebody who doesn't have this skill. (And it's not a binary skill, either - I'm orders of magnitude better at it than I was two years ago, but I'm still improving).

The stereotypical "non-musician guitarist" is someone who's got amazing finger dexterity, but who when asked to play something cool is focused on showing off all his tricks.

You make the transition through ear training. NOTHING has helped me as much as the functional ear trainer (downlable for free at miles.be). Getting an ear training book also helped, but the functional ear trainer has been the biggest thing. It's giving me the ability to hear the relationships of the different notes in a song, to understand what the musician is doing not physically but musically.

Bob1131 05-17-2012 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonPR (Post 3043191)
But that's the wrong way round. If people need widgets, that's the reason for the business in the first place. You can't make money if nobody wants widgets. As long as they want widgets, you'll make money (assuming you price them so as to give you a good profit).

Jon, that depends on perspective. The philosophy is that the widget has a value and the cost of making it must not exceed its value in the market place. So, to be successful one must not pay attention to the manufacture of the widget to the exclusion of the business economics. Similarly, a musician will be more successful by paying attention to the music produced just as much as his or her part in making that music. A single player in an orchestra will be a better musician by hearing the whole composition and contributing accordingly to the whole sound rather than focusing only on his or her part to the exclusion of the whole sound. Singers do the same thing when singing harmony. All must be conscious of the mix and final sound produced.


Quote:

Originally Posted by JonPR (Post 3043191)
So a "musician" has to be in the business of "saying something". Not just making clever noises on his instrument. There are a lot of guitarists who - while they may begin with a love of music, a desire to learn how to make it - end up immersed in the technicalities of scales, fretting, picking, etc. The sounds they produce are more like circus tricks or magic acts. They make you go "wow" without actually telling you anything, or making you feel anything other than astonishment.

I understand what you are saying here and I agree that there are many players who focus on the tricks (shredding comes to mind) rather than making actual music. However, I think you are referring to artistry or artistic expression rather than what constitutes a "musician." When I played baritone horn and trombone in orchestras I had a few conductors get irritated with me for employing artistic expression! In their world, a good musician will play the music as written. I know this to be true in choirs as well...vocalists are preferred to sing without vibrato or inflections of feeling. I don't think anyone would say that the players in an orchestra are not musicians. So, feeling the song and expressing it accordingly has a place in music, but it isn't a prerequisite to being a musician. It is, however, essential to being a good musical performer/entertainer and absolutely required to be a successful soloist on any instrument, IMHO.

Hotspur 05-17-2012 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob1131 (Post 3043464)
However, I think you are referring to artistry or artistic expression rather than what constitutes a "musician." When I played baritone horn and trombone in orchestras I had a few conductors get irritated with me for employing artistic expression! In their world, a good musician will play the music as written.

Meh. I think you're being a little unfair to them.

The conductor's job is to have the orchestra play the best piece of music it can. If every individual musician just did what they felt like, the whole thing would be a mess.

But a good classical musician can, absolutely, positively play the music *exactly as written* and still add their own artistic expression to the performance. After all, when the conductor makes a big loopy wave with his hand, what's that mean?

There's a reason why people, not robots, play in orchestras.

Good orchestral musicians are performing with an unbelievable amount of precision, and their control over that precision gives them a lot of expressive power. Get louder? Okay - how? There are a million different ways to get louder over the course of a measure. etc.

Listen to different performances of classical pieces. You'll hear the same music, performed exactly as written, sound very different.

Mr Fixit eh 05-17-2012 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HHP (Post 3042819)
I would say you have to immerse yourself in listening to the music you like, all instruments, until you have the sound hard wired in. When you play, think about those sounds and strive to replicate them in your own way.

Thanks, HHP – Listen/ Immerse. Great advice. I’ve been finding that as I work on playing a song, it really helps a lot to play/replay the song. ‘Replicating’ – that’s the tough part!
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob1131 (Post 3042851)
I have listened to your posted songs, so I know you play guitar to make music, that is, to play and sing songs. So, what you are hearing when you listen to your tracks is a developing musician, not just a guy trying to play guitar! Don't mistake your efforts for just guitar playing and conversely don't expect advanced musicianship from novice skills. Playing well with good use of technique and dynamics takes practice....not just time, but earnest practice.

Thanks for this, Bob, for the encouragement.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob1131 (Post 3042851)
So, if it doesn't sound like good music to you, listen critically to your work to identify opportunities for improvement and then work to actually improve. Playing with more advanced musicians and/or taking lessons will also help. Just for the record, I've heard improvement in your musicianship since you started posting, so I think you are on the right track!

I think that’s the part I’m struggling with the most – critical listening and identifying ways to improve.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upsidedown (Post 3042853)
The same way you get to Carnegie Hall.

What I take away from this is “lots of hard work” Insightful, I suppose 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Eyed Junko (Post 3042873)
But in the last year and a half, since I started gigging as often as I can, I have seen and felt a tremendous growth. It's not just the time put in playing; doing it live in front of people (even as background, which I usually am) demands more and different things of you than just practicing at home, and you explore the music differently. Songs that I've been playing mechanically since high school are suddenly sounding richer and fresh and more, well, musical. It's been an excellent experience, and I recommend it to all.

You’re right, Greg. I’ve performed a couple times a month for the past few years, and it does put a lot of pressure on to improve the ‘sound’. My goal is to get out busking every week during this Summer season.
Quote:

Originally Posted by not darth (Post 3042909)
We talk about pianists, clarinetists, bassoonists - and it is assumed that they are musicians. So, why does it seem like "guitarist" is being hinted at as anything lesser? -K

Good point.
Quote:

Originally Posted by rick-slo (Post 3042916)
Much of being a musician, or at least playing musically, comes from what is internalized inside your head. How do you connect with the music you are playing? On a given song what meaning does it have for you at a this particular point in time? What story does it tell and/or mood does it inspire in you? You have to feel that or it won't come out spontaneously in your playing. Yes, you may be able to copy accurately what you have heard someone play, but you will be static and have little flexibility. …Listening musically comes before playing musically.

Thanks, Rick. This is exactly where I am struggling. I think what often happens is that I listen to the song and I have a connection with it. Then when I get caught up in performing it – especially in front of a camera – I lose that feeling/connection because I’m so caught up with getting the technical side right!
Steve

Bob1131 05-17-2012 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotspur (Post 3043489)
Meh. I think you're being a little unfair to them.

The conductor's job is to have the orchestra play the best piece of music it can. If every individual musician just did what they felt like, the whole thing would be a mess.

But a good classical musician can, absolutely, positively play the music *exactly as written* and still add their own artistic expression to the performance. After all, when the conductor makes a big loopy wave with his hand, what's that mean?

There's a reason why people, not robots, play in orchestras.

Good orchestral musicians are performing with an unbelievable amount of precision, and their control over that precision gives them a lot of expressive power. Get louder? Okay - how? There are a million different ways to get louder over the course of a measure. etc.

Listen to different performances of classical pieces. You'll hear the same music, performed exactly as written, sound very different.

I think you misunderstood my point, or perhaps I am inadequate at expressing it. Having been a classical musician, I have the highest regard for them. My point was what you expressed, in that if they all expressed the music individually, it would be a mess. Therefore, a good musician must consider the end product and any self expression must be limited to the boundaries of the whole. Therefore, even though classical musicians can certainly self express within a performance, I would be hard pressed to say that the ability to self express defines a musician. Does that make sense?

mr. beaumont 05-17-2012 12:14 PM

See, now we're hitting at some real stuff here.

A musician understands. They know their role in the music that's being played.

Bern 05-17-2012 12:34 PM

I'll be honest...the definition of 'musician' doesn't interest me at all. Why should it ? I play guitar because I like the guitar as an instrument, I like how it sounds and I can create and play music using its sound I enjoy. Personally, it's my choice of what to learn about playing the instrument. What else is there ?

him 05-17-2012 12:42 PM

Y'all do realize that this "guitarist vs. musician" thing is just a way to put people down, right?

"Guitar? I guess it's OK for folk songs, but not Serious Music. Real muscians play instruments like the flugelhorn."

You cannot move from being a guitarist to being a musician. It's an illogical proposition. Sorry, that's just how it is. If you play guitar, you are a musician. DEAL WITH IT! You may be a lousy musician, or a great one, but you are a musician. Well......If you can sing, you can move from guitarist to musician by having your arms and legs removed -- assuming you can't play with your nose of course.

If you want to say the same thing without being quite so illogical, invent a term like "Musicality." Well, re-invent. The guy who taught my college Music Theory class was a touring sax player on the side. I was talking to him one day and he made a comment about teaching sax. Actually he launched into a rant along the lines of, "It isn't about speed, or accuracy, or technical proficiency. It's about Musicality. It's about having the feel, and ear, needed to produce sounds that people enjoy hearing. Give me a choice between two students, one making great technical progress but with no Musicality, and another really struggling but with a lot of Musicality, I'd much rather teach the kid who has that Musicality because when he gets it he'll be able to make music people want to hear."

Even that comes down to "good musician" vs. "bad musician."

Paikon 05-17-2012 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by him (Post 3043545)
It's about Musicality. It's about having the feel, and ear, needed to produce sounds that people enjoy hearing. Give me a choice between two students, one making great technical progress but with no Musicality, and another really struggling but with a lot of Musicality, I'd much rather teach the kid who has that Musicality because when he gets it he'll be able to make music people want to hear."

Even that comes down to "good musician" vs. "bad musician."

true but you cant teach musicality

Mr Fixit eh 05-17-2012 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by washy21 (Post 3042965)
My philosophy is that anyone who plays an instrument with a genuine desire to create music is a musician.

I agree, Washy. I was looking more at “how do I improve the quality of my music”
Quote:

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont (Post 3043042)
Listen...communicate...understand...get away from the "guitar centric" view

I’ll have to think about that one for a bit, it’s pretty existential
Quote:

Originally Posted by j3ffr0 (Post 3043091)
Learn theory and apply it often. Plenty of good books available

I’ve resisted the ‘urge’ to sit and memorize music theory books, because I’ve got to many songs to master. I’ve picked up some theory as I went along. Maybe I just don’t know that I need to know (or what I need to know).
Quote:

Originally Posted by ljguitar (Post 3043096)
If you want to play more musically, then you must learn and apply more musical devices in your arranging and execution. I'm not talking about playing all the right notes, or speed, or accuracy. Those are expected basic techniques...what we need to be developing are musical theatrics (how we share it with the world).
Muriel Anderson taught a wonderful clinic at Healdsburg 2005 titled "Putting your heart into your hands..." and it was a great discussion on how to become more musical. Her topic points covered arranging, tempo, dynamics, fluidity, relaxing and/or breathing while playing, etc. From her perspective, getting the notes correct is just step one. From there an arrangement is sculpted, and then shared.

Hi Larry, this sounds like gold. Too bad she doesn't have the workshop available on DVD. I’d like to learn more about this concept.
Quote:

Originally Posted by chewie (Post 3043132)
Just the fact that you are aware that you are playing like a technician is the answer.

I'm referring to another way to see a difference between a player and a musician - a person who plays with heart and soul, as opposed to just playing the notes in the right order at the right times, with the right dynamics. So - back to your question: Just keep up that awareness and you're on the road to where you wanna go.

Thanks, chewie – with heart and soul – yes, that’s what I want
Quote:

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont (Post 3043171)
I don't think you need to know any theory to be a "musician," but if you can't be bothered to learn a few things about music, you better have a darn good ear and a clear way of explaining things... Really, theory is only necessary for certain musicians...but some fundamentals...now that stuff seperates the men from the boys--whether they know the stuff through formal training or intuitively...

Now Mr. B – that’s what I wanted to hear 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JonPR (Post 3043191)
So a "musician" has to be in the business of "saying something". Musicianship is something else, however. It's about seeing your instrument as simply a tool, like any other. ... There is always so much more to say than you can say with a mere guitar - no matter how technically skilled you become.

Good points, Jon
Quote:

Originally Posted by Paikon (Post 3043254)
in order to be an expressive guitar player you should first be a technical player
i 've watched a couple of your yt videos and i think you need to practice in technique (clean notes for example) Once your playing is confident technically you don’t have to think about chords for example but only about music !

Thanks for this very practical advice, Paikon. It’s true, and I appreciate you saying it.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Paikon (Post 3043254)
one other thing is letting your soul out when you play, play with passion

And this is a good part of what I’m struggling with – how does one go about finding this passion?
Steve


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