Amps for archtop jazz tones?
 

I was debating between here and the electric guitar subforum for this question. For clean jazz tones on an archtop, what amps are you guys choosing? Solid state or tube? Brand and model?

Here's a recent thread that might help:

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=600092

I just had a similar thread that got a lot of feedback that you may want to reference. For me I'm going for a Henriksen Bud10 because of the tone, features, and portability. I want some thing I can sing and play through, use for small performances, and transport easily. For me this translates to solid state for consistency. For clean jazz tones you should check them out.

Roland is pretty much the benchmark for clean jazz tone.

And, of course, Fender tube amps (Princeton, Deluxe, Twin, etc.) are also synonymous with clean tone.

Thanks everyone. I missed the other thread. Will check it out now.

Any thoughts on the Fender Mustang GTX for clean playing?

I don't know about the GTX one, but I have a v 1.o Mustang and it's a piece of crap. I bought it used, and initially I thought it sounded good modeling the Blackface. But it's noisy, junk "artifacts" in the sound. The controls are complicated, and the USB port doesn't work.

Polytone!!

Any thoughts on the Roland JC22?

The best straight-ahead jazz tone I ever heard was a two-pickup Gibson Johnny Smith through a JBL-equipped Deluxe Reverb - only problem was that it weighed as much as a Twin... :eek:

The blue-check mid-60's Ampeg Gemini II (and to a lesser extent the rare B-12XT Portaflex 2x12" guitar amp) was the sound of the NYC "Key Club" A-list studio players - and they sell for about half the price of a Fender of similar vintage/power...

Randall RG-120 "orange-panel/grey-panel" combos - available in a variety of speaker configurations - are grossly undervalued on the market, built like tanks, and were arguably the first solid-state amps with any real tone...

Think old-school analog - tube or solid-state - and loads of clean headroom, and you'll be on the right track...

I have a Gemini II and used to engineer sessions with them a lot -- they have a glassy top end that I personally wouldn't want if I was trying to get that ES175 Joe Pass/Jim Hall/Kenny Burrell kinda thing. A Polytone is pretty much that sound if you can find one. The closest modern equivalent I've heard is Quilter. For me, the Roland JC's are close but not quite it. But they're more versatile for other styles and have that cool stereo chorus.

For me personally, I'm not a classical jazz guitarist so immitating a specific player or style really isn't a big deal. I already own a PRRI and a Vox AC30. I'm thinking a nice solid state amp for very clean tones might be fun for playing nice clean jazzy runs on an archtop. As of right now, I'm kind of leaning toward the JC22. A local shop has a new one discounted $100 below what I am seeing them on the internet.

I tried one of these a while back when I was looking for a full-featured practice amp, and I found the sound somewhat thin and lacking in low/low-mid response - not what I'd guess you'd be looking for with a 17" full-depth carved-top; since you've got two good amps already, there are a couple of options:

• In the thread I referenced above, I mentioned a cocktail-hour musician who ran his Epiphone ES-175 Premium through a (discontinued) Fender Frontman 25R with a replacement Eminence Lil' Buddy speaker - one of these (or a Cannabis Rex 10) in your Princeton would provide you with a mellower tonality in a full-featured all-tube practice/small-gig combo;
• Plug into the AC30's Normal channel low-gain input, set the Master Volume to around 3:00, and dial in your sound with the Tone Cut and Channel Volume - while the Celestions (Greenback or Alnico Blue) aren't ideal jazz speakers IMO, there's more than enough power-stage grunt and headroom to get some sweet tubey-clean tones at reasonable volume;
• If you don't want to tinker with the Princeton the TDPRI guys love these, and with an Eminence Cannabis Rex 12" replacement speaker you could have a dedicated all-tube club amp for the discounted price of the JC-22:
  
  
  https://images.monoprice.com/product...es/6118153.jpg
  
  https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=611815
  
  
• Although tubes add their own euphonic coloration (the warmth, depth, and organic richness you hear in older jazz recordings, and which I personally like) some guys just prefer the more pristine analog solid-state tonality - if you're more inclined in that direction I get excellent results with my Godin CW II and a (discontinued) Fender Frontman 212R, and at $150-200 for a good used one it's a cheap way to get major headroom and "big-clean" full-range tone with classic "blackface Twin" looks:
  
  
  https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/02...g?v=1372869226

+1

A well respected amp among jazz players.

I didn't mention it, but I already own a Monoprice like the one you listed. I never really though of it as a clean amp though. Interesting thoughts!

Polytone is the classic, Roland JC120 is the other, newer, classic but the AER Compact 60 definitely gets the job done too. Basically you want loud with lots of clean headroom. I have a Compact 60 II which is great with my acoustics and the jazz box.

Since you already have the Monoprice, pop for the Cannabis Rex (a very popular mod regardless of style) and some top-shelf tubes - I'm using these in my Bugera V22 (BTW your amp takes the same complement) and they've served me well for the last 10+ years with no signs of quitting:

https://www.thetubestore.com/bugera-v22-premium-package

The power tubes in particular are stronger-sounding than the factory stuff - FYI they're pre-Glasnost Soviet mil-spec (equivalent to the JAN tubes the Fender guys would kill for), and in my application sound more like a big-bottle (6L6, 7027, 6CA7) American tube - and the speaker has an efficiency rating of ~102dB which, in addition to the rounder, mellower tone, offers additional clean headroom since the power tubes aren't working as hard to produce a given volume level...

Steve, I bought some premium tubes ($180) for the Monoprice a while back. Attached is the receipt showing what I bought. I know very little about all of this. Are these good enough?

Could you point me toward the Cannabis Rex speaker you mentioned?Attachment 49653

Those are the exact tubes I have in my Bugera (including the matched triodes); have your tech do a bias job - very important for both tone and tube life - and you're good to go...

Here's the Cannabis Rex:


https://media.sweetwater.com/api/i/q...sRex-large.jpg

https://www.eminence.com/speakers/sp...l=Cannabis_Rex

Thanks! I just ordered the speaker and will have the tech install it along with a bias job. I appreciate the help!

Tell him/her that you're looking primarily for a jazz tone - FYI there are subtle tricks (very subtle, and none of which are DIY in nature) that can be played with bias current - here's a bit of background:

https://valvetubeguitaramps.com/the-...ting-the-bias/

I assume you already know that the Preferred Series EL84's come with a numerical rating (the higher the number, the higher the potential headroom and the slower the breakup); since the Monoprice is sold as a "rock" amp (which BTW allows the manufacturer to use weaker/lower-quality tubes, for quicker power-tube breakup - not to mention lower production costs :rolleyes:) those Russian mil-spec tone bottles will likely need a bit of massaging (definitely a bias adjustment, possibly replacement of a couple of components to allow fine-tuning) to get the tone you're after. Not to worry - FYI this is not an uncommon procedure for tube amps - and when you're done you should have a lightweight little tone box that'll be an old-school complement to your Eastman... :guitar:

Nice amps and reasonably priced. The JC22 is very lightweight and easy to get to the gig. Not a super loud amp like the JC120 or JC90 but still a nice, clean sounding amp; great for small combos.

JC's have a brighter tone compared to classic solid state jazz guitar amps like the Polytone or more modern Henriksen amps. You can certainly get a "jazz tone" but I think it lends itself to a broader range of styles.

JC's typically had a low level hiss (loudest in the 120). Certainly not noticeable when you're playing but in between tunes, very noticeable. With the JC22, the hiss is gone. :)

As for other solid state "jazz" amps, I'm a huge fan of Acoustic Image. I pair my Clarus 2R with a Raezer's Edge Twin 8 (2 x Eminence Alpha 8a drivers). The speakers are wired in parallel so you get 400 watts of clean power.

I also have Polytones (Megabrute and Minibrute II), Henriksen (Bud), Roland JC22 and a Quilter (101R). All capable of producing a "jazz" tone to varying degrees, in my opinion.

Btw, your Fender PRRI is a wonderful amp, very capable of producing clean, warm jazz tones. Not as much clean headroom as a nice solid state amp, but still no slouch.

I have a Polytone Teenybrute (the one with the 10" speaker) bass amp (no distortion control, just volume treble and bass) with a JBL speaker. It's been fine for 30 years. Bought it used from a Toronto main line jazz player. Keys are always going to be the speaker, the tone stack, and the clean headroom. A lot of guitar amps are oriented towards distortion way too early, and you can't get clean volume out of them. Solid state amps, including the new high powered D class amps, can get very high power out of a small package, and clean. At that point it's down to the tone stack, the midrange boost/cut, and how it balances with your pickup on your guitar.

I also have an Ampeg B15 speaker cabinet, the original portaflex 15" bass cabinet, that sounds amazing with any amp I've used it with. The speaker and cabinet can colour the sound more than anything else.

Earlier you said you’d used a DR w/JBLs. That’s been part of my go-to setup for a while, but I’m looking at the CR for a little more versatility. Could you characterize the difference you hear?

Thanks

FWIW I never owned the Deluxe/JBL combo; I heard it at an affair back in the '70s, and I was so impressed (I love the Johnny Smith Gibsons, and you don't see too many - much less the two-pickup version - on the local club/catering-hall circuit) with the combination that I still remember how it sounded almost 50 years later: sweet, full, well-defined, with a touch of high-end sparkle that kept things from getting thuddy/muddy (as full-size archtops can often do) and zero cone breakup - to my ears the ultimate tube-powered jazz amp, and a perfect match for the Johnny Smith...

The main reason I suggested the Cannabis Rex to the OP is that he's looking to warm up the tone of a British-voiced, EL84-powered "rock" amp - something which, speaking as the (highly satisfied) owner of a Bugera V22 loaded with the "big-brother" Swamp Thang (similar voicing to the CR but much "bigger" sounding - my V22 sounds more like a 2x12" - but also significantly heavier, and I doubt the lightly-built Monoprice could handle the weight) it will do admirably, taming the inherent brashness of the EL84 power tubes (not an issue with your 6V6's); FYI I had a JBL E-120 in my 7591-powered '64 Ampeg Rocket back in the '70s - inspired by the JS/DR combination mentioned above - which sounded wonderful for cleaner styles (jazz, country, soft rock) but was a real boat anchor to carry (added at least 15 pounds to the total weight). If you're going to use it solely as a jazz amp and you're looking for a slightly mellower tonality (not to mention a significant weight savings) the Cannabis Rex might be a good choice; that said, as long as you can handle the ~60 lb. bulk of the DR/JBL IME you're not going to find a finer (and more versatile, in the long run) mid-powered combo...

The speaker arrived today. Looking forward to getting it installed and the tubes biased.

Speaker installation is a DIY if you want to get a jump on things - just make sure you get the polarity right; FYI it's a good idea to get a head start on breaking it in anyway before you replace the tubes - this way you can focus on one variable at a time when evaluating the contribution each change makes to your tone, not to mention improving your tone right now...

Henriksen the bud ten is really good for jazz tone ^^

I dropped off the amp today. It'll probably be a few weeks before I see it again.

If you need something to keep you busy in the meantime, work on this:



FYI I had the pleasure of taking lessons from Jack, when I was a 10-year old kid and he was a teenage phenom teaching at the local music school - one heluva player then as now, and a wonderful teacher with a real passion for everything guitar... :guitar:

Thanks! I like the JBL quite a lot, but as you note it’s heavy. I’m always looking for a lighter rig, but it would be hard to sound better than it does now....