The Acoustic Guitar Forum

The Acoustic Guitar Forum (https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/index.php)
-   Custom Shop (https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=38)
-   -   New 00 Woodsman model Hatcher Guitars (https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=526844)

Mark Hatcher 11-06-2018 11:03 AM

Bracing
 
We typically hear the top is where most of the sound comes from and is the largest influencer in the sound from any given guitar. Next in line is the back and sides which sometimes are said to be the seasoning for the sound.

Here is another way to look at this: Yes, I agree the soundboard is the strongest influencer but the second is the top bracing, not the back and sides. Now, I realize the top in the first statement is usually thought of as both the soundboard and the bracing but, I'm saying that even if you were to consider the bracing separately it would have more influence on the sound than the back and sides.

So braces are important. I shake my head when I hear a builder say, "Braces are an unfortunate necessity to keep the guitar top from caving in". Braces are very much more than that. They are one of the chief ways that a builder can manipulate the sound characteristics and response of a guitar and hopefully optimize the materials and goals of an instrument.

The first guitar I made, like many builders, was right out of the Cumpiano and Natelson book; Guitarmaking Tradition and Technology. Chapter 7 called "Soundboard Bracing" had a section called "Procedure: Preparing The Brace Blanks". I read it and it made sense to me and I followed along ever since. I just thought that was how it was done and incorporated that into how I always did it. I was disappointed to find my assumption of this being common practice was wrong.

So what is this procedure? It's really all about riven wood or splitting out your blanks so the braces are perfectly quartered in one plain and have absolutely no run out in the other. A perfectly straight grained brace is easier to carve, is more homogenous in it's stiffness along it's length, it's less likely to crack, and most importantly, it is up to 30% stiffer than a poorly prepared brace from the same board. So that means, you can make that brace a lot lighter to do the same job, which means what little resource of power you have from the strings isn't wasted on throwing around weight you don't need. This makes for a more responsive guitar in both response quickness and volume.

It's not too hard to split out the wood but. you do have to have good straight grained wood to start with. That's not too much to ask considering how much money and time we spend trying to pick out the less important back and side wood set. I use a bamboo splitting froe which is typically used for hand made bamboo fly rods (another application that obviously needs to be strong).

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7160/...14448eca_b.jpg

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7002/...7ab1a368_b.jpg

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7004/...923c1283_z.jpg

Lets' take a historical view of this. Here is a picture of the most famous piece of riven wood in the world. It is on display in the Smithsonian Museum:

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/807/4...05ee93a8_o.jpg

Seems appropriate to show this because today is an election day and this was a campaign prop from the 1800's. Abraham Lincoln's campaign manager went back to Illinois to get a piece of one of the split fence rails that Abraham rived to use in his campaign. You see saw mills were spreading across the country and like any new technology there were pluses and minuses. The easiest way to make a board used to be to split it out of a log. Now saw mills could cut them much faster. The split boards were of much better quality, they stayed straight, were stronger, and lasted longer, but, were more work. These were the exact qualities Abraham Lincoln wanted to emulate in his campaign. It's still valued today, as celebrated on the back of a 2009 penny:

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/792/4...36f33366_c.jpg

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/795/4...c9768b57_c.jpg

Sawmills, table saws, and bandsaws were a great advancement in technology and manufacture and saws are often used to make brace blanks. When asked why something as important as braces are being sawn instead of split the answer usually is "Saws are faster and there is a lot less waste."


You have to ask yourself, do you want your braces made out of waste wood?


I started bracing the top today with riven wood:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4907/...11a2d87f_c.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4881/...5edaf91c_c.jpg


Thanks for following along!
Mark

Guitars44me 11-06-2018 11:32 AM

Very Interesting Mark!!!
 
Cool and useful info about super straight and hand split braces!

Most interesting indeed!

Always something to learn in the Custom Shop!!!

Thanks Mark

Paul

ukejon 11-06-2018 11:51 AM

Great post Mark. Your braces are brilliant in design and execution, and I love the use of the mini-froe.

Mark Hatcher 11-06-2018 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guitars44me (Post 5883148)
Cool and useful info about super straight and hand split braces!

Most interesting indeed!

Always something to learn in the Custom Shop!!!

Thanks Mark

Paul

Thanks Paul, I'm glad you have found value in this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ukejon (Post 5883165)
Great post Mark. Your braces are brilliant in design and execution, and I love the use of the mini-froe.

Thanks ukejon, That was a tough post to put together.

printer2 11-06-2018 05:26 PM

I did a 'tutorial' on how to make a guitar out of a fence board and a 2"x4" to poo poo the idea that a person needed $500 in wood to build a guitar. I split the wood trying to get pieces long enough to use and with minimal runout for braces. It was educational as the board has some areas where the grain looked sort of straight. Needless to say there was a lot of waste wood generated in the project. Good wood defiantly makes building easier and tends to make a better sounding guitar.

The Bard Rocks 11-06-2018 07:50 PM

Neat stuff about the braces - and Abe. I love that kind of thing.

LouieAtienza 11-06-2018 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by printer2 (Post 5883465)
I did a 'tutorial' on how to make a guitar out of a fence board and a 2"x4" to poo poo the idea that a person needed $500 in wood to build a guitar. I split the wood trying to get pieces long enough to use and with minimal runout for braces. It was educational as the board has some areas where the grain looked sort of straight. Needless to say there was a lot of waste wood generated in the project. Good wood defiantly makes building easier and tends to make a better sounding guitar.

I've built guitars with under $50 in money spent, and used WRC, Sitka, Sapele, Bubinga, Padauk... all perfectly quartered - but you have to be able to buy them (which you mentioned you couldn't in your area), know what you're buying, and you have to be able to resaw them (which you can do.) Building a guitar to sound like a guitar is easy, building a guitar to sound exceptional regardless of wood, is not. Though Mark does make it look easy! Unfortunately my play time with Mark's guitars was limited to tire-kicking, but a few strums were all I needed!

But I was spoiled. I had a lumberyard locally that didn't use the Internet, and didn't even take credit cards! I could go through racks for hours and pick winners. And the prices were right, as the wood was unsorted. And I lugged them around like old luggage for YEARS, because I know they'd be guitars one day! You wouldn't believe what I bought for ridiculously cheap prices then, that are astronomical today. If I ever get through the entire stash it'd be a miracle - and I have NOWHERE near the wood these guys have!

Such is the sickness of a wood nut.

printer2 11-06-2018 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza (Post 5883576)
I've built guitars with under $50 in money spent, and used WRC, Sitka, Sapele, Bubinga, Padauk... all perfectly quartered - but you have to be able to buy them (which you mentioned you couldn't in your area), know what you're buying, and you have to be able to resaw them (which you can do.) Building a guitar to sound like a guitar is easy, building a guitar to sound exceptional regardless of wood, is not. Though Mark does make it look easy! Unfortunately my play time with Mark's guitars was limited to tire-kicking, but a few strums were all I needed!

But I was spoiled. I had a lumberyard locally that didn't use the Internet, and didn't even take credit cards! I could go through racks for hours and pick winners. And the prices were right, as the wood was unsorted. And I lugged them around like old luggage for YEARS, because I know they'd be guitars one day! You wouldn't believe what I bought for ridiculously cheap prices then, that are astronomical today. If I ever get through the entire stash it'd be a miracle - and I have NOWHERE near the wood these guys have!

Such is the sickness of a wood nut.

I have some Sapele, Bubinga, Padauk that will be resawn some day. We used to have a real wood supplier many years ago but they disappeared. Wish I knew people could make guitars back then. One day I might build a guitar with Mark's sensibilities, love the cross section of those braces. Maybe one day I will get to hear one of his guitars.

LouieAtienza 11-06-2018 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by printer2 (Post 5883627)
I have some Sapele, Bubinga, Padauk that will be resawn some day. We used to have a real wood supplier many years ago but they disappeared. Wish I knew people could make guitars back then. One day I might build a guitar with Mark's sensibilities, love the cross section of those braces. Maybe one day I will get to hear one of his guitars.

They are special to see, hold, and hear! Lots of entertaining chat at the Hatcher table! It was such a pleasure to finally meet, after admiring build after build from afar, with the olive wood and soundhole-through-the-neck-block guitar as two of my favorite recent builds of his.

chasapple 11-06-2018 11:36 PM

Thanks, Mark. Fascinating stuff! The learning never stops here in the Custom shop. I had never even heard of the word 'riven' before. This 00 build you have going is special.

Mark Hatcher 11-07-2018 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by printer2 (Post 5883465)
I did a 'tutorial' on how to make a guitar out of a fence board and a 2"x4" to poo poo the idea that a person needed $500 in wood to build a guitar. I split the wood trying to get pieces long enough to use and with minimal runout for braces. It was educational as the board has some areas where the grain looked sort of straight. Needless to say there was a lot of waste wood generated in the project. Good wood defiantly makes building easier and tends to make a better sounding guitar.

Thanks for commenting printer2, Yeah, it’s not to hard to see the grain lines for that quartering split but, the runout split can be a real surprise!

Quote:

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza (Post 5883576)
I've built guitars with under $50 in money spent, and used WRC, Sitka, Sapele, Bubinga, Padauk... all perfectly quartered - but you have to be able to buy them (which you mentioned you couldn't in your area), know what you're buying, and you have to be able to resaw them (which you can do.) Building a guitar to sound like a guitar is easy, building a guitar to sound exceptional regardless of wood, is not. Though Mark does make it look easy! Unfortunately my play time with Mark's guitars was limited to tire-kicking, but a few strums were all I needed!

We enjoyed meeting you too LouieAtienza! Thanks for the kind word.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks (Post 5883563)
Neat stuff about the braces - and Abe. I love that kind of thing.

Thanks for commenting. Much of the art of making guitars is gleaned from the best aspects of changing technologies over the span of time. I like the stories too that add perspective and depth to the traditions of guitar making.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chasapple (Post 5883679)
Thanks, Mark. Fascinating stuff! The learning never stops here in the Custom shop. I had never even heard of the word 'riven' before. This 00 build you have going is special.

You’re welcome chasapple, the steel string guitar is certainly a child of fascinating and changing times!

Mark Hatcher 11-08-2018 04:32 PM

Onto the Back
 
Dipping into my oldest woods I have selected a set of Eastern Black Walnut that was still in an old sawmill that closed in 1850. A 168yr old set to go with the 173yr old Redwood top!

Here I am joining the back:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4809/...659614f8_c.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4838/...bd5b8449_c.jpg

On goes the back center graft:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4811/...a60041b3_c.jpg

I believe these two are a perfect pairing:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4825/...e26c935b_c.jpg

They will be trimmed with Black Ebony. The old kind that doesn't need dye to be black:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4827/...cc9b28fe_c.jpg

Thanks for viewing!
Mark

ukejon 11-08-2018 05:08 PM

Yikes! That is such a sublimely beautiful combination of ancient woods. So **** tempting!

TomB'sox 11-08-2018 05:37 PM

I would have to agree as to those being the perfect pairing, my word are they pretty!

Mark Hatcher 11-09-2018 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ukejon (Post 5885101)
Yikes! That is such a sublimely beautiful combination of ancient woods. So **** tempting!

Thanks ukejon, The colors are very good together and more importantly they are an excellent combination for tone and responsiveness; quick and rich.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomB'sox (Post 5885116)
I would have to agree as to those being the perfect pairing, my word are they pretty!

Thanks Tom! Good colors and an old look. As I said before, if anything about this guitar looks old I want that to be because it is old!

Thanks for commenting!

Mark

Mark Hatcher 11-09-2018 10:43 AM

Logo
 
I am sticking with the way I usually to my logo. I figure using a branding iron to burn my "H" into the wood is certainly making use of a very old technology!

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4826/...db9fd9b4_c.jpg

There aren't many embellishments on this guitar so when there are I am keeping them subtle. Like the bear claw figure in the center back graft;

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4823/...1e366767_c.jpg

Thanks for following along!
Mark

ross748 11-09-2018 12:52 PM

The deep thought and subtle creative input in this build is amazing. Great work Mark. Following along and looking forward to the finished product.

Mark Hatcher 11-10-2018 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ross748 (Post 5885830)
The deep thought and subtle creative input in this build is amazing. Great work Mark. Following along and looking forward to the finished product.

Thanks ross748, I am really enjoying this build and the research that goes into it!

Mark

Mark Hatcher 11-11-2018 08:29 AM

Ladder Back Bracing
 
Here is a picture of the back bracing going on:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4883/...87d17fb2_c.jpg

I typically do a very contemporary latticed braced active back but, the look and voicing of the traditional ladder back braces are more appropriate on this model's design. It will still be light and active and will be used to build overall tone balance for these woods and deep body design.


Thanks for viewing!

Mark

ukejon 11-12-2018 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Hatcher (Post 5885691)
I am sticking with the way I usually to my logo. I figure using a branding iron to burn my "H" into the wood is certainly making use of a very old technology!

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4826/...db9fd9b4_c.jpg

There aren't many embellishments on this guitar so when there are I am keeping them subtle. Like the bear claw figure in the center back graft;

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4823/...1e366767_c.jpg

Thanks for following along!
Mark

Awww Mark, you glued the H in upside-down. Such a shame...total disaster. Go ahead a finish the guitar and I’ll pay a deep deep discount to take it off your hands. Glad to help out!

jaymarsch 11-12-2018 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Hatcher (Post 5887145)
Here is a picture of the back bracing going on:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4883/...87d17fb2_c.jpg

I typically do a very contemporary latticed braced active back but, the look and voicing of the traditional ladder back braces are more appropriate on this model's design. It will still be light and active and will be used to build overall tone balance for these woods and deep body design.


Thanks for viewing!

Mark

Very cool photo of the back ladder bracing. Always appreciate your attention to detail, Mark.

Best,
Jayne

Poppa 11-12-2018 02:21 PM

Very cool Mark. When its ready to roll, pm me, I'll shoot you my address so you can send it to me for a complete review! Looking forward to it!

Mark Hatcher 11-12-2018 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ukejon (Post 5888197)
Awww Mark, you glued the H in upside-down. Such a shame...total disaster. Go ahead a finish the guitar and I’ll pay a deep deep discount to take it off your hands. Glad to help out!

Thanks ukejon, Glad to know you’ve got my back! :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaymarsch (Post 5888216)
Very cool photo of the back ladder bracing. Always appreciate your attention to detail, Mark.

Best,
Jayne

Thanks Jayne!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poppa (Post 5888286)
Very cool Mark. When its ready to roll, pm me, I'll shoot you my address so you can send it to me for a complete review! Looking forward to it!

Thanks Poppa! Glad I’m getting so much support on this build! :)

Mark

ukejon 11-13-2018 09:11 AM

Love the little clamping trestles....very smart.

Mark Hatcher 11-13-2018 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ukejon (Post 5888842)
Love the little clamping trestles....very smart.

Thanks, this helps keep the go bars from marring the braces or worse yet, a go bar can pretty easily pop off a brace and dent the top or back.

Mark Hatcher 11-13-2018 10:18 AM

Sides
 
Eastern Black Walnut is a pleasure to bend. It doesn't need a lot of heat so it's unlikely to be scorched. It also doesn't tend to crack on the outside curve or crinkle on the inside curves. Plus the bends hold well!

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1971/...12061672_b.jpg

Here the Mahogany heel and neck blocks are going on:

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1965/...211113e1_c.jpg

The back is radiused and here I am installing Spanish Cedar kerfing:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4866/...b1aba0ec_c.jpg

Meanwhile, lest you were to think I'm moving along all business as usual, I've also been researching, both materials and techniques for putting the neck together. I'm setting up and practicing the old style joinery that was once used to hold a headstock on.
Today a headstock is normally just cut out along with the neck. When thicker pieces of Mahogany started becoming available around the turn of the century the factories started using a one piece neck. It's a lot faster, and doesn't require much skill. The problem is that doesn't make for a very strong headstock because the grain is short on that angled head. Laminates on the top and back help sure all this up but, that's not how they used to do this. The stronger method is to use a separate piece of wood for the headstock. There are several ways to join the headstock. The best way is also one of the oldest, most time consuming, and hardest ways so of course, I'm going to get really good at this because it's also the coolest way!

It's called a bird's mouth joint for obvious reasons:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4805/...0873bc41_b.jpg

Luckily, I have a lot of previous experience making this type of joint from 20 years ago when I was making Cedar strip ocean kayaks. I used this type of joinery when constructing paddles. The thing I love about this kind of old joinery and some of the other old style wood joinery is the joints are hand fitted and there is a mechanical element holding it all together. In this case the joint is made tight enough that you can push the headstock down in until it tightens up with about a 20 thousandths gap. Then you hold a wood block to protect the headstock up top and bring it on home with a smack of a wooden mallet:

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1958/...2e3e1c18_b.jpg

As a craftsman I find it quite satisfying as I hone my skills mastering this art. The only question that remains is, do I really need glue for this to hold?


So no, it's not business as usual in the Hatcher studio!


Thanks for following along.

Mark

Mark Hatcher 11-13-2018 04:47 PM

Old Peterborough
 
It's funny how when you are concentrating on a particular subject so many related things seem to just come out of the woodwork. Such as this 1886 map of my town that I just came across. The view of the town is pretty much the view I would have from my home if there weren't a 132 years worth of trees that have since grown in:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4862/...7d173929_c.jpg

This would make a great background for a paper label inside a Woodsman guitar!

ukejon 11-14-2018 05:52 AM

Fantastic workmanship. Do you cut the female (neck) part of the bird’s mouth joint first and use that to mark the angle of the male (headstock) piece? Or is there a template or specific angle of some sort?

Mark Hatcher 11-14-2018 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ukejon (Post 5889720)
Fantastic workmanship. Do you cut the female (neck) part of the bird’s mouth joint first and use that to mark the angle of the male (headstock) piece? Or is there a template or specific angle of some sort?

The headstock is angled at 15 degrees and the bird’s beak is angle is about 23 degrees taper and has about 8 1/2 degree tapered sides. I use basic templates to get me in the neighborhood then fit the joint by hand.

Mark Hatcher 11-14-2018 12:39 PM

Old Hog
 
I've been on the hunt for more 100 yr old+ woods to expand my selection for the Woodsman model. I just came across a number of 150 yr old+ salvaged wood Mahogany back and side sets that originated in the Central American country of Belize:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4901/...c5cda6a2_b.jpg

They are very hard sets with nice character and ring. I'm looking forward to making guitars with these!


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:39 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum

vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=