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-   -   First Build: Western Red Cedar & White Oak Grand Concert (https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=300747)

Viking 06-27-2013 12:49 AM

First Build: Western Red Cedar & White Oak Grand Concert
 
So my first build will be a Grand Concert. The best sounding guitar I've personally ever played was a Taylor GC3. That in itself is kind of a sad statement, but, with time I'm sure I'll have my hands on something nicer.

The top will be western red cedar, the sides and back will be quarter sawn white oak. The stuff I've got has a very nice looking light colored sap wood strip. Not too much figure, considering it's quarter sawn white oak, but it will still be pretty. I'll probably also build the neck, fret board & bridge out of oak. Mostly because it's what I've got laying around.

It will have a 24 3/4 inch scale length and 1 3/4 inch nut width.

I bought and devoured Cumpiano's book. Then Kinkead's book. I've also purchased Somogyi's books. So all of that in addition to being an information hound, I love to research whatever has caught my fancy.

I've started acquiring tools. I'm already set up to fashion nuts and saddles. I've replaced the nut and saddle on my Yamaha FG730S. I also replaced the nut and saddle on my Epiphone J200. But being predominantly a finger style player, it's super thick top really needs a pick to drive it sufficiently, so I sold it to a guy who just likes to strum some chords.

I would like to have my first instrument completed before the end of summer, though that might be a tad ambitious. In addition to building the actual guitar, I'll also be way laid in the coming weeks by the need to build jigs and infrastructure.

I'm captivated by simple lines and earthy colors and tones. I'll probably end up building plenty with spruce, but I love the darker looks of the cedars and redwoods.

I'm also devoted to the idea that a fine guitar is as much a piece of art as it is a musical instrument. And for better or worse, I think the judgment of most musicians is influenced by how a guitar looks. If it doesn't sound good first and foremost, then it doesn't matter what it looks like(lipstick on a pig and all that), but all else being equal, folks will opt for a beautiful instrument over an ordinary looking one. So I hope to achieve this level of beauty with learned precision and complimentary contrasting colors of woods, simple lines and interesting but minimalist inlay.

On finishes, I want to learn how to French polish. From what I’ve read, a French polish finish will have the smallest impact on tone of the various finishes one can use. Though I suppose I’m open to someone trying to convince me otherwise if they feel the need. I do understand that it is a complicated and difficult skill to master.

I know for a fact though, that I will have a very hard time finishing my first guitar. I took a wood shop class in high school. I built a stool and a box(still have the stool, gave the box to mom…). I was so enamored with the look and feel of naked wood, I didn’t "finish" those pieces. Not because I was lazy, but because I just loved the look and feel of the wood all by itself. I know I’ll have to finish the guitar to help protect it, but I also know I will definitely not want to.

Anyway. This thread will actually be as much a thread about my building infrastructure & jigs to perform the various tasks related to building the guitar.

Viking 06-27-2013 01:12 AM

This was my first attempt at a top. But the material was not very well quarter sawn and it's really floppy when bent laterally. Not sure if it should feel that way. It's .13" thick too, so it's still pretty thick.

Sorry for the poor photo quality. My wife took her decent camera with her to Wyoming for her friends wedding. How dare she!

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z...30627-0057.jpg

Here is an end grain shot, though you can't see much.

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z...30627-0057.jpg

Viking 06-27-2013 01:17 AM

This was my next attempt. This wood is finer grained, and more closely quarter sawn. Though it has some pretty dramatic color variations, it is actually pretty close grain. At least, much closer than my first attempt.

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z...30627-0058.jpg

I had attempted to thickness my first top with my plane, and that was going okay. But it's not very consistent. And it seems to me that the thickness of the top is one of the primary sources of tone in the guitar. So it should be consistent. Given that, I'm going to be building a drum sander. I've got the shaft, pillow block bearings, and pulleys on the way. Building the sander will be my primary activity this coming weekend.

Also, this is 6 individual pieces I jointed with my plane and glued together. I'll plunk down more serious money for better wood for my second build.

Viking 06-27-2013 01:20 AM

This is a sketch of the outlines of the guitar I am trying to build. I'm actually uncertain if I want to include the florentine cutaway or not. It doesn't seem to me that it would be that much harder to do with the cutaway. So... I'll see when I get to bending the sides.

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z...30627-0059.jpg

Viking 06-27-2013 01:22 AM

And these are the general plans I'm using to build the guitar. I'm using the OO plans at the bottom.

http://www.grellier.fr/plans.php?lang=en

And, here is a Pinterest board that contains some of my inspirations for the various design concepts and elements that are guiding my vision for my guitar.

Guitar Design Concepts

KingCavalier 06-27-2013 05:48 AM

Looking good Viking, this is going to be a lot of fun to watch. Keep the pics coming.

Neil K Walk 06-27-2013 07:25 AM

So far so good, Viking. Using oak and incorporating a Florentine cutaway is a bit ambitious so give yourself time. I'm only on my first too, though, but followed a similar path so I've been through a few pitfalls.

redir 06-27-2013 09:30 AM

I just built a guitar with white oak and I absolutely love the stuff. I French Polished it and I can tell ya it will take forever to fill the pores. You may want to consider an epoxy pore filler. I used egg whites and pumice. It worked but it was not easy. This guitar was also a parlor guitar and you may find that a floppy top works well on a small body guitar.

printer2 06-27-2013 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redir (Post 3525197)
I just built a guitar with white oak and I absolutely love the stuff. I French Polished it and I can tell ya it will take forever to fill the pores. You may want to consider an epoxy pore filler. I used egg whites and pumice. It worked but it was not easy. This guitar was also a parlor guitar and you may find that a floppy top works well on a small body guitar.

Any pictures anywhere or maybe a build thread? After my practice build I will be using oak on my small guitar. Since this is my first kick at the can I love to see what others have done.

Viking 06-27-2013 07:26 PM

Thanks fellas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by redir (Post 3525197)
I just built a guitar with white oak and I absolutely love the stuff. I French Polished it and I can tell ya it will take forever to fill the pores. You may want to consider an epoxy pore filler. I used egg whites and pumice. It worked but it was not easy. This guitar was also a parlor guitar and you may find that a floppy top works well on a small body guitar.

Yes, you certainly can't post something like that and not provide a link to pictures! :mad:

Yeah, I've noticed the pores on the oak. Like tiny little straws that have been cut in half length-wise.

redir 06-28-2013 06:46 AM

Yes sure I have a build thread on another luthiers forum. It was part of a challenge competition so it's not your usual build but it really is an outstanding sounding guitar and I definitely plan on building more with oak and possibly pine top if I can find more of it.

http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewt...=10133&t=37566

IDK if you have to be a member to see pics if so let me know and I'll just post a few.

printer2 06-28-2013 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redir (Post 3526364)
Yes sure I have a build thread on another luthiers forum. It was part of a challenge competition so it's not your usual build but it really is an outstanding sounding guitar and I definitely plan on building more with oak and possibly pine top if I can find more of it.

http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewt...=10133&t=37566

IDK if you have to be a member to see pics if so let me know and I'll just post a few.

I loved that guitar. It looks amazing and sounds great. It would thrill me to pieces to end up with something as nice.

Neil K Walk 06-28-2013 08:26 AM

All talk of finishing aside: oak is a hard wood to work with if you're new to woodworking. I tried making cam clamps out of red oak and it really made my little bandsaw strain - the wood was literally burning as the blade was cutting through it. Obviously I needed a better blade. I can only assume that I'd have to be diligent about keeping my planes sharp and use a lot of sandpaper and elbow grease to work with it as well. As for pore filling, I'd assume that Z Poxy resin might work great with it. Do a search on Youtube for "Todd Stock pore filling". For his demonstration he was working with maple which is also a very dense wood.

charles Tauber 06-28-2013 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwakatak (Post 3526501)
I tried making cam clamps out of red oak and it really made my little bandsaw strain - the wood was literally burning as the blade was cutting through it. Obviously I needed a better blade.

In my experience, it's no worse than hard maple. Yes, you need a better blade.


Quote:

Do a search on Youtube for "Todd Stock pore filling". For his demonstration he was working with maple which is also a very dense wood.
Uhm, maple is a "closed pore" wood and doesn't require pore filling.

An old-fashioned paste pore filler works well on oak, as it does on rosewoods and other open-pored woods.

Viking 06-28-2013 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redir (Post 3526364)
Yes sure I have a build thread on another luthiers forum. It was part of a challenge competition so it's not your usual build but it really is an outstanding sounding guitar and I definitely plan on building more with oak and possibly pine top if I can find more of it.

http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewt...=10133&t=37566

IDK if you have to be a member to see pics if so let me know and I'll just post a few.

Wow. I'm speechless. That's a beautiful guitar. The bar's been set pretty high.

Viking 06-28-2013 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwakatak (Post 3526501)
All talk of finishing aside: oak is a hard wood to work with if you're new to woodworking. I tried making cam clamps out of red oak and it really made my little bandsaw strain - the wood was literally burning as the blade was cutting through it. Obviously I needed a better blade. I can only assume that I'd have to be diligent about keeping my planes sharp and use a lot of sandpaper and elbow grease to work with it as well. As for pore filling, I'd assume that Z Poxy resin might work great with it. Do a search on Youtube for "Todd Stock pore filling". For his demonstration he was working with maple which is also a very dense wood.

Yeah, I've got a timberwolf resaw blade on my band saw, waiting to resaw the oak. I don't think it will be a problem. I'll take it slow. But we'll see.

Neil K Walk 06-28-2013 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charles Tauber (Post 3526532)
In my experience, it's no worse than hard maple. Yes, you need a better blade.




Uhm, maple is a "closed pore" wood and doesn't require pore filling.

An old-fashioned paste pore filler works well on oak, as it does on rosewoods and other open-pored woods.

Oops. You're right. My bad. My noobness is showing (blushes.) I defer to your wisdom.

printer2 06-28-2013 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwakatak (Post 3526877)
Oops. You're right. My bad. My noobness is showing (blushes.) I defer to your wisdom.

Yeah but soft maple... :)

ewh2 06-28-2013 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redir (Post 3526364)
Yes sure I have a build thread on another luthiers forum. It was part of a challenge competition so it's not your usual build but it really is an outstanding sounding guitar and I definitely plan on building more with oak and possibly pine top if I can find more of it.

http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewt...=10133&t=37566

IDK if you have to be a member to see pics if so let me know and I'll just post a few.

I read that thread and watched the videos.

You my Sir, are a artist of the highest order. It's 'found art' in a great way.

Great job.

Viking 06-28-2013 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redir (Post 3526364)
Yes sure I have a build thread on another luthiers forum. It was part of a challenge competition so it's not your usual build but it really is an outstanding sounding guitar and I definitely plan on building more with oak and possibly pine top if I can find more of it.

http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewt...=10133&t=37566

IDK if you have to be a member to see pics if so let me know and I'll just post a few.

Yeah, I hope you don't mind if I steel some ideas from your build. Some of that is just too good to resist.

Viking 06-28-2013 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwakatak (Post 3526501)
All talk of finishing aside: oak is a hard wood to work with if you're new to woodworking. I tried making cam clamps out of red oak and it really made my little bandsaw strain - the wood was literally burning as the blade was cutting through it. Obviously I needed a better blade. I can only assume that I'd have to be diligent about keeping my planes sharp and use a lot of sandpaper and elbow grease to work with it as well. As for pore filling, I'd assume that Z Poxy resin might work great with it. Do a search on Youtube for "Todd Stock pore filling". For his demonstration he was working with maple which is also a very dense wood.

So I used my timberwolf blade for the first time tonight, resawing a piece of scrap white oak. Wow. Yeah, you just need a better blade. My band saw only has a 1/2 HP motor, and it didn't even balk at the 5.5 inches of oak I asked it to resaw. I have a 12" band saw, and the blade is an 80" long, half inch thick, 3TPI.

Here is a link to the blade on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Here's a shot of the wood I resawed tonight. Fairly consistent thickness. I might get 2 whole sets out of the quarter sawn white oak. Also pictured here are the pillow block bearings and the pulleys for my drum sander. The main drum shaft should arrive tomorrow. I'll spend the day cutting the disks for the drum.

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z...s/100_2865.jpg

Also pictured here are the beginnings of my rosette. I'm thinking I'd like to do a tiled rosette, with alternating pieces of oak and something else.

printer2 06-28-2013 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viking (Post 3527396)
Yeah, I hope you don't mind if I steel some ideas from your build. Some of that is just too good to resist.

I'm doing the ebonized oak, heard about it before and was thinking about using it but after seeing the results I will try it. On the topic of pine top guitars, another member of that forum did a guitar with pine also.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=e0ht46wafN0#!

Viking 06-28-2013 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by printer2 (Post 3527507)
I'm doing the ebonized oak, heard about it before and was thinking about using it but after seeing the results I will try it. On the topic of pine top guitars, another member of that forum did a guitar with pine also.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=e0ht46wafN0#!

That's a really nice sounding guitar. All from a pine top too....

I had also heard of ebonizing wood from somewhere else, but I was only going to use it on the finger board and bridge. I might have to give that burst a try. Gives the guitar an instant aged look that is quite appealing.

charles Tauber 06-28-2013 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viking (Post 3527492)
I have a 12" band saw, and the blade is an 80" long, half inch thick, 3TPI.

For resawing, use the widest blade your saw will take, such as 3/4", 3 TPI, skip tooth. The wider the blade, the more regular the result. You'll know when the blade starts getting dull by the fact that it cuts less straight - wanders more - and requires more force or starts to burn the wood, rather than cut it cleanly.

Viking 06-29-2013 10:46 PM

I spent today getting started on the drum sander. I've got the foundation of the sander, bearings, drum shaft, motor, pulleys and v belt all in place. The motor is an old circular saw that was no longer cutting straight for some reason. Instead of the blade, I've mounted a small pulley there. Here's the setup.

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z...s/100_2868.jpg

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z...s/100_2870.jpg

At some point, I'm going to want to replace the motor with something a bit quieter... :eek: Cause holy cow that thing is freaking loud. A circular saw is loud enough. Did you know, that when you bolt it to something like a big piece of wood, it gets a lot louder? ;)

Also, I'm going to put together an integrated dust collection system. I'm going to build an impeller that runs on the same shaft as the drum, a dust hood, and use some dryer hose or something to pipe air from the drum chamber to an intake manifold, through the impeller, and ultimately out a filter or collector of some kind.

Something similar to how Matthias Wandel(freaking wood working genius) did his, except mine will run on the same shaft as the sander. At least, that's the plan. We'll see how well it works.

printer2 06-30-2013 06:32 AM

Just as I saw the picture I thought, 'That is going to be loud'. Then I read you saying it was loud and I had a chuckle.

I would forget about the integral dust collector. I do not think you have the hp with the current motor. It adds a fair amount of complexity and it is easier to run a separate blower.

Neil K Walk 06-30-2013 07:37 AM

Wow. You're gearing up for the long haul! You obviously have some sort of technical background. I envy you. I'm more the artsy fartsy type who "guesstimates" and learns to live with the inevitable flaws. You should have no problems but if you do know that there's no shame. ;)

BradHall 06-30-2013 08:38 AM

I am impressed by your ingenuity. On the motor, you could dampen the noise by putting a rubber or cork sheet or isolating washers where it is connected to the bench. Although short on horsepower, most circular saws have a high rpm. Could you regulate the speed and decrease the volume? I would think torque is as important as speed on the drum.

Viking 06-30-2013 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by printer2 (Post 3528722)
Just as I saw the picture I thought, 'That is going to be loud'. Then I read you saying it was loud and I had a chuckle.

It was an object lesson in the amplification of acoustic energy! It would have been even louder, and the tone even better if the base board had been thinner!

Quote:

Originally Posted by printer2 (Post 3528722)
I would forget about the integral dust collector. I do not think you have the hp with the current motor. It adds a fair amount of complexity and it is easier to run a separate blower.

Hmmm. We'll see. I'm going to build the impeller anyway. Part of my problem is one of cash flow. I have lots of dreams and desires... but not enough cash to make all of them happen right now. So, I'm going to cheep route on several fronts for now. If I do a separate dust collector, that will mean I need another motor.

And even if this motor is underpowered for the tasks I am asking it to perform, building the impeller will not be a waste of time, cause I'll just detach it from the sander and attach it to another motor when I get one.

Viking 06-30-2013 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwakatak (Post 3528765)
Wow. You're gearing up for the long haul!

I am indeed. I'm quite serious about this pursuit. I have some rather grandiose visions of where I want this to ultimately go. Though I know they will take time, money and lots of energy (and perhaps a fair amount of blood)...

Some of you may have read some of my comments on how one goes about educating one's self on a topic as complicated and encompassing as this... I'm a software engineer. Self trained and taught, which is to say I have no formal training or schooling in my career field. I have not felt this passionate about learning something new since the days I began teaching myself how to write software over ten years ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwakatak (Post 3528765)
You obviously have some sort of technical background.

I don't know about technical, but being a software engineer perhaps gives me a frame of mind that inherently enjoys immersion in complex systems. Code and computers... wood and glue. Each are systems with many variables. It's all about trying to see the big picture, while maintaining a focus on individual details and using some critical thinking skills about those details and how they affect the whole.

Course, who knows. I might string up my first guitar and the top totally explodes under the stress.

Some have taken my comments as arrogant. I don't think they are. I think I am simply confident in myself and okay with potential failure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwakatak (Post 3528765)
I envy you. I'm more the artsy fartsy type who "guesstimates" and learns to live with the inevitable flaws. You should have no problems but if you do know that there's no shame. ;)

I have no doubt that I'll make my share of mistakes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BradHall (Post 3528832)
I am impressed by your ingenuity.

Why thank you. :cool:

Quote:

Originally Posted by BradHall (Post 3528832)
On the motor, you could dampen the noise by putting a rubber or cork sheet or isolating washers where it is connected to the bench. Although short on horsepower, most circular saws have a high rpm. Could you regulate the speed and decrease the volume? I would think torque is as important as speed on the drum.

I have thought that a dimmer switch in the electronics might be a good idea, especially knowing that the typical circular saw runs at 5000 RPMs, give or take. One of the successful drum sanders I've seen runs at around 1000 RPMS. Assuming my motor is running at 5K RPMs(which, I don't actually know how fast it's running), and the pulleys I'm using afford me an RPM reduction factor of .44, that means my drum will be spinning at 2200 RPMS, which is a bit fast. A dimmer switch could bring that level down to a more reasonable (and safe, I don't want the drum to fly apart) speed, though at a cost to torch and HP from the motor. So we'll see. I might have to bite the bullet and go get a different motor. But for now, I'll play with this one and have some fun. I'll just stay out of the line of disintegration in case the drum comes apart.


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