Ironwood Necks?

Folkstrum · #1 02-22-2006, 09:37 PM

A little cross-pollination here. Read about a Vega PS longneck (actually, supposedly Pete Seeger's own longneck) that has a neck made out of "lignum vitae"--tree of life, or "ironwood" as I guess it's more commonly known. Supposedly 3 times denser than oak--and who's ever heard of an oak B/S guitar?

Anyway, necks on banjos contribute to the tone of the instrument; most common banjo necks are mahogany or maple. I know I've heard from luthiers that "ironwood" is no joke of a name for this stuff. Very difficult to work with. (They build airplane propellers out of it). So, if it is used for a neck on a banjo, why not a guitar? I don't think I've ever seen or heard of an ironwood guitar neck. Is it too dense to make for a decent neck? Any builders out there that can comment?

(ok-the more I read up on this wood, the more obvious the reasons for NOT using it are becomming painfully evident. It's like a wooden rock

)

M_A_T_T · #2 02-22-2006, 11:16 PM

It would be VERY neck heavy. I think it's also quite oily and would be hard to finish. Might be good for just an oil finsih, give a nice natural feel.

Folkstrum · #3 02-23-2006, 09:30 AM

Well-now I'm not sure of the source of the source of the source of information

--so I dunno if the bit about ironwood is accurate. Everything I read about lignum vitae mitigates AGAINST it being used in instrument building becasue of its density, weight, etc. Sure doesn't seem like it would be a resonant wood. Like I mentioned, I think I read it is 3 times denser than Oak-and no one makes oak guitars, or oak necks. So, this question may rank as one of the stupider ones posed here. If it slips off the page, I ain't giving it a "bump".

SteveS · #4 02-23-2006, 09:56 AM

Many woods used in guitar building are more dense than oak - mahogany, bubinga, and sometimes maple. I couldn't find any information on various rosewoods, but I'd bet some rosewoods are more dense than oak. Oak has been used in guitars and makes a pretty nice instrument. Some modern luthiers have made oak guitars, but they don't sell - mostly because of perception - oak is just to popular and we all want more rare varieties of wood. Some builders believe that a heavy neck is a very good thing for tone and sustain. Some believe that a light neck is better.

Avocet · #5 02-23-2006, 01:22 PM

How about a nice neck with truss rod channel inserts of the amazingly rare carbon fiber tree? That would certainly add stiffness without weight. Double them up for 12-strings and it's all good.

Folkstrum · #6 02-23-2006, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveS

Many woods used in guitar building are more dense than oak - mahogany, bubinga, and sometimes maple. I couldn't find any information on various rosewoods, but I'd bet some rosewoods are more dense than oak. Oak has been used in guitars and makes a pretty nice instrument. Some modern luthiers have made oak guitars, but they don't sell - mostly because of perception - oak is just to popular and we all want more rare varieties of wood. Some builders believe that a heavy neck is a very good thing for tone and sustain. Some believe that a light neck is better.

Steve-who built an oak guitar? Aside from prejudice against the wood, is it resonant? Does it "ring"? I am sincerely asking, as I've never seen an example of one. Oak is truly a beautiful wood--and makes for super looking furniture. But I haven't seen anyone building a guitar out of it. And as for "ironwood"--someone compared it to "wooden steel," and I called it a wooden rock. Anyway, if you have an example of an oaken guitar, I'd love to see it. Seriously!

SteveS · #7 02-23-2006, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Folkstrum

Anyway, if you have an example of an oaken guitar, I'd love to see it. Seriously!

I understand that oak was used a lot around the turn of the century (1900).

Taylor Oak guitar - I took picture this at a factory tour. They were building it for nearby the city of Poway from a tree that fell in the city. I believe the pallet guitar is made from oak pallets (back and sides) (neck?)

http://groups.msn.com/SLSavilleFamil...oto&PhotoID=47

http://groups.msn.com/SLSavilleFamil...oto&PhotoID=48

Look at the Fylde Single Malt Ariel Guitar-
http://www.guitargal.com/fylde.html

eBay oak back and sides set with a picture of an oak guitar made by Rance White of Lazy River Guitars -

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...category=47067

Steve Dikkers OM-
http://www.guttenberg.k12.ia.us/dikk...kOM/OakOM.html

Maurer Style 487 Flat Top for $3500 -
http://www.topshelfmusic.com/page3.html

MarinerCross · #8 02-23-2006, 05:39 PM

There is a thread going on the UMGF on the subject of oak guitars under General Musical Topics. Someone posted a beautiful picture of one of John Arnold's guitars with oak B&S.

sirflyguy2000 · #9 02-23-2006, 07:28 PM

They sound great, but they rust like crazy if you live in a humid climate.....

Folkstrum · #10 02-23-2006, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveS

I understand that oak was used a lot around the turn of the century (1900).

Taylor Oak guitar - I took picture this at a factory tour. They were building it for nearby the city of Poway from a tree that fell in the city. I believe the pallet guitar is made from oak pallets (back and sides) (neck?)

http://groups.msn.com/SLSavilleFamil...oto&PhotoID=47

http://groups.msn.com/SLSavilleFamil...oto&PhotoID=48

Look at the Fylde Single Malt Ariel Guitar-
http://www.guitargal.com/fylde.html

eBay oak back and sides set with a picture of an oak guitar made by Rance White of Lazy River Guitars -

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...category=47067

Steve Dikkers OM-
http://www.guttenberg.k12.ia.us/dikk...kOM/OakOM.html

Maurer Style 487 Flat Top for $3500 -
http://www.topshelfmusic.com/page3.html

Well, this IS interesting! Thanks Steve for taking the time to list all these links. I really had NO IDEA! Amazing. I just thought an Oak guitar was-well-some kind of wooden oxymoron. Live and learn! That's why I keep comin' back here.

(BTW-couldn't get the pix of the Taylor oak to load-maybe it's my browser--but the others came in).

ship of fools · #11 02-23-2006, 08:32 PM

Wow Steve that Oak guitar is really something I really enjoyed the photo's great job of sharing I've seen one other Oak and it wasn't anywhere as pretty as this one was.louis PS you did say this was built by Taylor didnt you, I wonder who they made it for.lol

Tim McKnight · #12 02-23-2006, 08:32 PM

Many of the turn of the century "Parlor" guitars were made of Oak. As long as Oak is properly cut (quartersawn) and dried it will make a fine guitar. The reason they don't sell well is that people often associate Oak with furniture and not with musical instruments. I have some very highly figured white oak in my inventory but I just can't bring myself to build with it only to have tghe guitar hang on a hook for years before it sells ;(

Folkstrum · #13 02-23-2006, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim McKnight

Many of the turn of the century "Parlor" guitars were made of Oak. As long as Oak is properly cut (quartersawn) and dried it will make a fine guitar. The reason they don't sell well is that people often associate Oak with furniture and not with musical instruments. I have some very highly figured white oak in my inventory but I just can't bring myself to build with it only to have tghe guitar hang on a hook for years before it sells ;(

Well, heck Tim-I'll buy it if you'll put me on the "Esteban Installment Plan!"

Seriously, this is VERY educational for me, because I honestly didn't think Oak made for much of a tonewood, and I distinctly remember reading that luthiers don't like working with it much (but can I remember WHERE I read that-NOPE!). But, that combined with the fact that I have never personally seen, played or heard anyone extolling the virtues of an Oak guitar led me to assume (and you know what they say about "assume") it just wasn't done, except maybe for an experiment, or goof. And if you go to LMI, or Stew-Mac, I don't think oak is even listed in their stashes, but I might be wrong. But this begs the question: what does an Oak guitar resemble in terms of coloring a guitar's tone, and if you WERE to built that white oak guitar, Tim, what would be YOUR choice as a good top? (and if someone says it's somewhere between mahogany and rosewood I'm gonna SCREAM

)

As far as associating it with furniture, I feel basically the same about mahogany--before I really got into the more technical/lutherie side of guitars, I was associating mahogany more with my parents' dining room table and corner hutch than the B/S of a fine instrument. For me, I frankly wouldn't care---especially if oak has a really neat or unique tonal signature.

SteveS · #14 02-23-2006, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Folkstrum

As far as associating it with furniture, I feel basically the same about mahogany--

That is a great point.

dthumb · #15 02-23-2006, 10:32 PM

I bought a guitar on Ebay a while back for like sixty bucks just to see what one could get in a new guitar for that price, a "Nikko", actually. It had a molded resin back and sides like an Ovation and a laminated top with this massive "hunk -o - oak neck. The thing sounded like dooky acoustically but, plugged in it wasn't awful. The electronics were really pretty good. Anyway, the neck was like holding a log in your hand and very heavy. Not what I would call a great choice of woods.