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  #16  
Old 12-02-2017, 12:26 PM
Wyllys Wyllys is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
Somewhat spontaneously combinations of things done many times before. Start listening to several pieces by the same artist and you'll see the fingerprints.

Of course I have memorized the languages I use.
This is a good time to re-post a link regarding internalizing experience and accessing it...or letting it surface without conscious effort. I think of it as accepting the music rather than playing the music, of being an instrument rather than playing an instrument.

I feel there's quite a difference between memorization and understanding.

https://youtu.be/f29a1RL2ly0

Enjoy.
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  #17  
Old 12-02-2017, 12:30 PM
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being an instrument rather than playing an instrument.
Pretty much what Hal Galper says here:
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  #18  
Old 12-02-2017, 12:47 PM
Wyllys Wyllys is offline
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Pretty much what Hal Galper says here:
Interesting. I find Jimmys take a bit more to my experience as it does not rule out Divine Inspiration as Hal seems to do.

For me there's more to it than recall from whatever level. There's the ideal of being "in the moment" with no past and no future, "hanging ten" on the Big Wave, being a Mystic rather than a Mechanic.

But I do occasionally tune my guitar and change the oil in my car...
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Last edited by Wyllys; 12-02-2017 at 12:56 PM.
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  #19  
Old 12-02-2017, 01:12 PM
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
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One instructional source I like a lot is Vic Wooten's Groove Workshop DVD. In spite of the name, it's about Vic's approach to music, which is fascinating, and useful for any instrument.
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  #20  
Old 12-02-2017, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
Somewhat spontaneously combinations of things done many times before. Start listening to several pieces by the same artist and you'll see the fingerprints.

Of course I have memorized the languages I use.
When I read the initial comment about memorizing (or not) language, I thought, yeah, that sounds right, but the more I thought about it the more I realized I have memorized the language I speak in. And I don't remember doing it because I use that language just about 24 x 7 (yeah, my dreams are in the same language I speak).

If I played guitar and only used it to communicate with others 24 x 7, I'm confident I'd not even remember memorizing it, it would just be the way I speak.
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  #21  
Old 12-02-2017, 02:45 PM
AndreF AndreF is offline
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Great posts by Doug Young. Thank you for the great insights into modes.
Quote:
...He suggested you take a simple lick from a record, a new one every day. Learn to play it in all 12 keys, play it backwards, play it fast, play it slow. Try to play it over different chords and see where it can fit. Change to be minor, or major, change around notes, turn it inside out....
This is more or less how I practice scales to keep it fresh and not so monotonous. For example, taking segments or snippets out of a 2 octave scale, and focusing on speed bursts, coordination and timing, and changing them up, e.g. rhythm wise, major to minor, throwing in chords, etc...
Slightly off topic, but still related in my own view!
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  #22  
Old 12-03-2017, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
Interesting. I find Jimmys take a bit more to my experience as it does not rule out Divine Inspiration as Hal seems to do.
You take "divine inspiration" seriously? You think Jimmy Raney did?
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Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
For me there's more to it than recall from whatever level. There's the ideal of being "in the moment" with no past and no future, "hanging ten" on the Big Wave, being a Mystic rather than a Mechanic.
Right, but that's the illusion. I know the feeling exactly, but there's nothing "divine" about it. It comes from internalising all the stuff you practise. Exactly as you said before: "internalizing experience and accessing it...or letting it surface without conscious effort". There is literally nothing more to it than "recall from whatever level." It just happens subconsciously rather than consciously.

I don't think it helps to promote the view that it's somehow mystical and not understandable.
It's significant here that Galper is a teacher and Raney was not. It's Galper's business to understand the mechanisms. Raney was only expressing his sensation, not interrogating it. I'm sure he'd have agreed with Galper on how he got to that stage.
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  #23  
Old 12-03-2017, 11:27 AM
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Default the best part about this thread

The subject came up when doing a lesson on Active Melody. The main chord was BM, and the run of notes ran back up to that chord fingering.

Brian mentioned it being a Dorian run. So since I am working on soloing, licks, fills, etc. I started to wonder about modes.

I still am confused about them, but the most important(to me) thoughts here are about making the guitar "speak a language" and phrasing of notes, not just randomly playing notes over chords because they fit. I did print the Bob Womack paper on soloing, and Doug Young is on the same track. For now, this information is most valuable, and making the guitar speak is more important for me at this stage.

Another issue for new players like me(two years of daily practice) is getting carried away with too many notes, just because they "fit."
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  #24  
Old 12-03-2017, 12:14 PM
JimCA JimCA is offline
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Great thread!

My 3 take aways:

1. Young/Ritenour: Music is a language -- learn to expand your vocabulary.

2. Raney: You've got to get it in your subconscious. Occasionally magic happens -- perhaps it's as simple as your conscious mind getting out of the way.

3. Galper: I think he assumes the subconscious mind part. That said, you play it like you hear it in your mind, so learn to hear well.

Last edited by JimCA; 12-03-2017 at 01:30 PM.
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  #25  
Old 12-03-2017, 06:02 PM
FwL FwL is offline
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Originally Posted by harleycaptain View Post
I am at a stage where I can play a chord progression and then solo over it using the pentatonic scale positons, ad libbing and having it hopefully sound cool. As long as I stay with the notes in the scale, it "fits."

This is actually a good place to get started with modes.

It's helpful, however if you understand the concept of intervals and also how the major scale is harmonized with triads and 7th chords.

Intervals:

Major and minor pentatonic are like the bread and butter scales. They give you the basic notes that sound good. The modes give you some extra flavor... spice things up a bit. If you learn which notes (or intervals) to add to your pentatonic scales you can begin right away to add some of that color to your playing.

There are seven modes associated with the major scale. Three of the modes are simply a variation on the major pentatonic and three of the modes a variation on the minor pentatonic. The seventh mode isn't used all that much, so we'll just forget about it for now. You can always go after it later once you get your feet wet.

If you take the C major pentatonic scale you have the notes C D E G A, and the intervals 1 2 3 5 6.


Code:
                    8th fret
 ---|-6-|---|---|-1-|---|---|-
 ---|-3-|---|---|-5-|---|---|-
 ---|-1-|---|-2-|---|---|---|-
 ---|-5-|---|-6-|---|---|---|-
 ---|-2-|---|-3-|---|---|---|-
 ---|---|---|---|-1-|---|---|-
The Ionian Lydian and Mixolydian modes share these same notes/intervals. They just add F (4) and B (7) so you get 1 2 3 4 5 6 7.

To get Ionian (the major scale) you add the F and B notes straight. (1 2 3 4 5 6 7)

Code:
                    8th fret
 ---|-6-|---|-7-|-1-|---|---|-
 ---|-3-|-4-|---|-5-|---|---|-
 ---|-1-|---|-2-|---|---|---|-
 ---|-5-|---|-6-|---|-7-|---|-
 ---|-2-|---|-3-|-4-|---|---|-
 ---|---|---|---|-1-|---|---|-
To get Mixolydian you add F and Bb. (1 2 3 4 5 6 b7)

Code:
                    8th fret
 ---|-6-|b7-|---|-1-|---|---|-
 ---|-3-|-4-|---|-5-|---|---|-
 ---|-1-|---|-2-|---|---|---|-
 ---|-5-|---|-6-|b7-|---|---|-
 ---|-2-|---|-3-|-4-|---|---|-
 ---|---|---|---|-1-|---|---|-

To get Lydian you add F# and B. (1 2 3 #4 5 6 7)

Code:
                    8th fret
 ---|-6-|---|-7-|-1-|---|---|-
 ---|-3-|---|#4-|-5-|---|---|-
 ---|-1-|---|-2-|---|---|---|-
 ---|-5-|---|-6-|---|-7-|---|-
 ---|-2-|---|-3-|---|#4-|---|-
 ---|---|---|---|-1-|---|---|-

Now take the A minor pentatonic scale A C D E G (1 b3 4 5 b7)


Code:
     5th fret
 ---|-1-|---|---|b3-|---|---|-
 ---|-5-|---|---|b7-|---|---|-
 ---|b3-|---|-4-|---|---|---|-
 ---|b7-|---|-1-|---|---|---|-
 ---|-4-|---|-5-|---|---|---|-
 ---|-1-|---|---|b3-|---|---|-
The Aeolian, Dorian and Phrygian modes share these same notes/intervals. They just add the B (2) and F (6) just like before with the majors.

To get Aeolian (the minor scale) add B and F straight (1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7)

Code:
     5th fret
 ---|-1-|---|-2-|b3-|---|---|-
 ---|-5-|b6-|---|b7-|---|---|-
 ---|b3-|---|-4-|---|---|---|-
 ---|b7-|---|-1-|---|-2-|---|-
 ---|-4-|---|-5-|b6-|---|---|-
 ---|-1-|---|-2-|b3-|---|---|-
To get Dorian, add B and F# (1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7)

Code:
     5th fret
 ---|-1-|---|-2-|b3-|---|---|-
 ---|-5-|---|-6-|b7-|---|---|-
 ---|b3-|---|-4-|---|---|---|-
 ---|b7-|---|-1-|---|-2-|---|-
 ---|-4-|---|-5-|---|-6-|---|-
 ---|-1-|---|-2-|b3-|---|---|-
To get Phrygian add Bb and F (1 b2 b34 5 b6 b7)

Code:
     5th fret
 ---|-1-|b2-|---|b3-|---|---|-
 ---|-5-|b6-|---|b7-|---|---|-
 ---|b3-|---|-4-|---|---|---|-
 ---|b7-|---|-1-|b2-|---|---|-
 ---|-4-|---|-5-|b6-|---|---|-
 ---|-1-|b2-|---|b3-|---|---|-

You can start using these sounds right away wherever your major and minor pentatonic scales work. You don't even have to know what you're doing. Just mess around and add in some of those extra notes. The trick is to understand that the pentatonic scale already gives you the "safe" notes. Think of the added notes as passing tones or tensions you can add in and around the "safe" notes. Don't just go straight to one of the extra notes and hang out on it expecting it to sound good.


Harmonized Scale

I'm not going to get into a whole lesson on how to turn a scale into chords. I'm just going to say that learning this is how you will get to a point where you actually know what you're doing with modes. There are lessons all over the place on how a pattern of major and minor chords is built off the scale. You need to learn this. Once you have it down you can start to see how each of the modes is associated with each of the chords in the pattern. Recognizing which chords are being used out of the pattern is the key to knowing which mode will work well over a given chord progression.


Quote:
Originally Posted by harleycaptain View Post
The subject came up when doing a lesson on Active Melody. The main chord was BM, and the run of notes ran back up to that chord fingering.

Brian mentioned it being a Dorian run. So since I am working on soloing, licks, fills, etc. I started to wonder about modes.

If BM means B minor, then playing a lick out of the Dorian mode makes perfect sense. Minor chords have a lower case "m". Major chords have an upper case "M". If you actually mean B major, then Dorian makes no sense in that context.

If you can get to B minor pentatonic then add the notes/intervals that make it Dorian, you should be able to see how the lick in question use those same notes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by harleycaptain View Post
thanks all, I think I am better off forgetting about this part of theory for now and continue learning songs with techniques, and licks and riffs and doing call and response type stuff with fills..

There's absolutely no reason to think this way. Hopefully you are able to get some ideas from the stuff I posed above. Everybody makes such a big deal out of modes both pro and con. They're just sounds you can use to add some interest to your playing.


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  #26  
Old 12-03-2017, 11:20 PM
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Default thank you FWL

Yes I meant B minor pentatonic. Your explanation points out that it's more about intervals than actual notes.

I am going to experiment with the information you posted. I have added the "blue" notes to the pentatonic, but not the other notes you mentioned, so I am looking forward to hearing the different modes.

Thanks again for all that time you spent typing the post.
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  #27  
Old 12-04-2017, 01:40 AM
FwL FwL is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harleycaptain View Post
Yes I meant B minor pentatonic. Your explanation points out that it's more about intervals than actual notes.

I am going to experiment with the information you posted. I have added the "blue" notes to the pentatonic, but not the other notes you mentioned, so I am looking forward to hearing the different modes.

Thanks again for all that time you spent typing the post.

Understanding intervals is a huge part of the theory puzzle. Once you start to see how notes and intervals match up between chords, chord progressions and scales, you'll unlock everything else.


A couple of quick examples:

Say you're playing over a progression like A G D A and A is definitely sounding like the home chord. The first thing you can do is line up a pentatonic scale.... A major chord = A major pentatonic. But what modal notes can you add?

Both A Ionian and A Lydian include G# (7). That's gonna sound weird with that G major chord. A Mixolydian includes G (b7), so it's going to fit much better.


Now, say you're playing a common minor progression Am F G Am and Am is sounding like the home chord. Again, match the pentatonic... Am = A minor pentatonic.

If you want to add modal notes, you have to look at the F chord (b6 of Am). If you try to add Dorian notes, the F# (6) is going to sound out of place with the F chord.

Both Aeolian and Phrygian have the b6 (F), but Phrygian has the b2 (Bb) as well so might sound a little weird over the G chord (G B D).

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Last edited by FwL; 12-04-2017 at 01:41 AM. Reason: why not?
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  #28  
Old 12-04-2017, 09:20 AM
Paultergeist Paultergeist is offline
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I read through this entire thread.....I relate to the inquiry on the part of the OP.....and I relate to all the well-intentioned advice offered by many others responding to this thread. I do feel, however, that we guitar players as a generalized group are pretty ignorant about modes. I will also say that while many regard music as a "language," and many of us do engage parts of our subconscious / intuition while playing, such metaphors -- in my experience -- do not serve a student particularly well.

To the OP, I would like to offer my own small bit of insight regarding modes: First, in my frame of reference, it is not very useful to talk about a "modal scale" by itself, and I disagree with the use of terms such as modal chords, or modal notes. (Yes, one can take the Major scale, and -- starting on each of the seven notes -- *explain* how there are seven modes within the major scale, and.....so what?) A mode is a collective sound / mood created by the combination of a scale and a chord. Let me say that again: the scale and the supporting chord -- together -- create the mode.....one is not really a mode of anything without the other.

This is how I introduce the concept of a mode to a student. (OP, I would suggest that ask a friend to play the underlying chord for you, or use a loop station or recording device to support the underlying chord). The idea is to play chord notes (i.e. "solo") while hearing those notes over a single chord.

I begin by playing a C chord, or better yet, C Maj7 chord. Have the student solo over that single chord. Most intermediate players will gravitate to the C Major Scale, but I lead them there if needed. That sound -- the sound of the notes of the C Major Scale played over a C Maj7 chord -- is a representation of the Ionian mode. That sound (scale and chord together) has a certain *vibe* to it: friendly, light, up-beat, but also a bit common, generic, vanilla-sounding.

Next.....I would play a Dm7 chord. (OP, again, have a friend or loop station support the underlying chord, Dm7 at this time). Now, I have the student play the SAME scale notes (recall we are using the notes of the C Major Scale) as solo fodder now over that Dm7 chord. (Note: More-advanced students often gravitate towards D Natural Minor or D Minor Pentatonic -- these choices also work for soloing over the Dm7 chord -- but the point here is to identify and listen to the mode). So using exactly and only the notes of the C Major Scale played over a Dm7 chord, we experience a different sound / mood: a bit more unsettled, a little darker, etc.....but it still works. That sound -- the sound of the notes of the C Major Scale played over a Dm7 chord -- is a representation of the Dorian mode.

To re-cap:

Play the notes of the C Major Scale over CM7 chord: *hear* Ionian.

Play the note of the C Major Scale over a Dm7 chord: *hear* Dorian.

So.....that is my two cents.....and that is a "sampler" on modes -- a way to *hear* two different modes. Again, my take on it is that playing "in a mode" makes sense in the context of a set of scale notes and an underlying chord together.

I hope this information is useful to the OP.
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  #29  
Old 12-04-2017, 09:38 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paultergeist View Post
I read through this entire thread.....I relate to the inquiry on the part of the OP.....and I relate to all the well-intentioned advice offered by many others responding to this thread. I do feel, however, that we guitar players as a generalized group are pretty ignorant about modes.
Guitar players are definitely poorly taught about them. (Good explanation above, btw.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paultergeist View Post
I will also say that while many regard music as a "language," and many of us do engage parts of our subconscious / intuition while playing, such metaphors -- in my experience -- do not serve a student particularly well.
Agreed. You can't play "from your subconscious" until the vocabulary is in there to start with.
Without the language, you can't "play what you feel" any more than you can express yourself verbally in a language you can't speak.

Students need the techniques, the hands-on methods, the musical nuts and bolts.

It's OK for pros to talk about the sensation of playing when you have internalised all that stuff, but not to offer "play with feeling" as advice to students.
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  #30  
Old 12-04-2017, 02:10 PM
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Default how this helps

Since I practice and "perform" in my living room, mostly alone, but sometimes with my brother, I find that I get the most enjoyment doing call and response type playing. Playing a chord, then doing a lick or fill before the next chord. In addition, looping a progression and trying to come up with a solo or melody line.

Already, with some of the suggestions in this thread I hear a major change in the sound of the melody/solo using notes added by the dorian mode.

I guess you may use part of the dorian scale, or all of it depending on the chords in the progression.

It's pretty fascinating to me to hear the dorian for C minor, which sounds like Santana and all that is caused by adding a few notes to the C minor Pentatonic.

When my brother comes over, I can have him play a progression and I can "show off" what I have learned here.

The other thing is.... the scales sound more complex than the pentatonic, which to me begin to sound too simple after awhile.

My goal is to make the guitar "speak" which is different than plastering notes all over a chord progression. I think I am on the right road now.
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