The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Acoustic Amplification

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #16  
Old 11-26-2017, 01:46 PM
Kittoon Kittoon is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 239
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cochese View Post
I guess it's worth I try but it seems a bit redundant to use a DI/preamp into amps that pretty much already have that capability. While those amps can sound nice, they are not what I'd call state of the art sound systems. They are designed to give you some stage reinforcement or for amplifying your instrument in a small situation. I've had a couple of K&K's in guitars and while I think they can sound decent, the best results I got were blending them with a mag, mic or piezo. EQ can only do so much.

In the end it depend on your situation and expectations. Let us know how you make out.
Thanks for input! My big fear is that if I open the door to dual-source, I will get hopelessly lost!
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 11-26-2017, 03:51 PM
Cochese Cochese is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 312
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Br1ck View Post
Isn't it true that it is hard to get a good parametric circuit with a 9 volt? The guitar stomp box EQs that are touted as being very quiet are all AC units.

My approach is that if you like what is coming out of the guitar, Dazzos in my case, all you need is a RedEye. More people, including me, don't really know how best to use all the bells and whistles.
It's more than 9 volts. More expensive studio EQ's often use multiple passive resonant filters that each have their own signal path vs a potentiometer that changes the value. Studio gear has to have more headroom as you are many times processing the entire mix vs a solitary instrument. While an acoustic guitar can have powerful transients a properly designed 9-18 volt unit should be able to handle the voltage swing.

If whatever you're using works for you that's great. The Red Eye from my understanding has a 1MegOhm input that is the correct impedance for certain pickups. It solves that issue and has very minimal EQ capabilities. Many times the struggle through a system is more about the room acoustics and quality of the speaker system.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-26-2017, 03:55 PM
Cochese Cochese is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 312
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kittoon View Post
Thanks for input! My big fear is that if I open the door to dual-source, I will get hopelessly lost!
Lost, maybe. It is more of a pain though. Laurence Juber, Tommy Emmanuel and Don Alder all come to mind as players with really good tone that use multi systems. Michael Hedges used multi-source systems as well. You can't really EQ a K&K to sound like an UST, mic or a mag pickup. The reverse is also true.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-27-2017, 09:31 AM
Al Acuff's Avatar
Al Acuff Al Acuff is offline
Pickin' & Grinnin'
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico
Posts: 242
Default

The LR Baggs Anthem SL is a simple two source system. You make a one time adjustment to a tiny screw. There's a jack and a volume knob. They've licked the feedback problem. Simple.

I play mine through an AER Compact 60 amp and have tried various preamps. The most natural sound happens when my guitar is plugged straight in to the AER with no preamp. The amp has a balanced line out so it's also my preamp and monitor when I play through a PA.

A dual source system can be pretty simple these days. I was a die hard sound hole pickup player for decades. I recently decided to go with a Baggs PU in my new Waterloo guitar and I'm really enjoying the natural sound of the dual source Anthem SL.

There are other fine two source systems available. I can only speak for my Anthem PU but I'm sure the systems from DiMarzio, Fishman, etc. are also good quality and worth considering.

PS. A while back I compared a Grace Alix with a Demeter Tube DI using a Sunrise pickup into a small PA. The Demeter added some mojo and is much simpler to use. The Grace sounds accurate and clean with lots of gain and plenty of eq control but I missed the tube mojo of the Demeter. Both are studio quality.

I also have a Venue DI and a Session DI from LR Baggs which are very well built and as good as I need for the occasional gig where I need an onstage DI other than my Compact 60.
__________________
Al Acuff
Al's Folk Music Blog
Alan Acuff Music
1949 Gibson J45
1953 Gibson L4C
1963 Gibson LG1

Last edited by Al Acuff; 11-27-2017 at 09:58 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11-27-2017, 12:08 PM
Kittoon Kittoon is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 239
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Acuff View Post
The LR Baggs Anthem SL is a simple two source system. You make a one time adjustment to a tiny screw. There's a jack and a volume knob. They've licked the feedback problem. Simple.

I play mine through an AER Compact 60 amp and have tried various preamps. The most natural sound happens when my guitar is plugged straight in to the AER with no preamp. The amp has a balanced line out so it's also my preamp and monitor when I play through a PA.

A dual source system can be pretty simple these days. I was a die hard sound hole pickup player for decades. I recently decided to go with a Baggs PU in my new Waterloo guitar and I'm really enjoying the natural sound of the dual source Anthem SL.

There are other fine two source systems available. I can only speak for my Anthem PU but I'm sure the systems from DiMarzio, Fishman, etc. are also good quality and worth considering.

PS. A while back I compared a Grace Alix with a Demeter Tube DI using a Sunrise pickup into a small PA. The Demeter added some mojo and is much simpler to use. The Grace sounds accurate and clean with lots of gain and plenty of eq control but I missed the tube mojo of the Demeter. Both are studio quality.

I also have a Venue DI and a Session DI from LR Baggs which are very well built and as good as I need for the occasional gig where I need an onstage DI other than my Compact 60.
IF I really open the door to dual-source, I have decided the Anthem would be my first choice based on research (mostly on this forum!) -I sure do like the simplicity of the KK passive though.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 11-27-2017, 01:21 PM
Spook Spook is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 789
Default

A basic DI like a RedEye or Demeter doesn't do what a proper preamp does. Most of us need full EQ, FX loop, notch filters, flexible in/outs, variable input impedance, and footswitch muting control.

When you buy a Grace Design Alix for $600 it's because you need/want all of those things combined with a studio grade input stage. And yea.. you really do hear it if you have good amplification. If you want those things with dual source without a drop in sound quality you get the Felix for $400 more. The current alternative is the next tier down in fidelity or going to studio gear. Problem there is it's not designed for a performance environment meaning it won't be all that sturdy, light, compact, or flexible. Or you can do what folks did before we had the Alix/Felix and get a Pendulum SP-1.
__________________
Spook
Southern Oregon

Last edited by Spook; 11-27-2017 at 02:07 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 11-27-2017, 01:40 PM
Kittoon Kittoon is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 239
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spook View Post
A basic DI like a RedEye or Demeter doesn't do what a proper preamp does. Most need full EQ, FX loop, notch filters, flexible in/outs, variable input impedance, and footswitch muting control.

When you buy a Grace Design Alix for $600 it's because you need/want all of those things combined with a studio grade input stage. And yea.. you really do hear it if you have good amplification. If you want those things with dual source without a drop in sound quality you get the Felix for $400 more. The current alternatives are studio gear not designed for a performance environment meaning they won't be all that sturdy, light, compact, or flexible. Or you can do what we did before we had the Alix/Felix and get a Pendulum SP-1.
Well , now I have to ask. "Sonically" how does the Grace Designs products compare to the
"crowned jewel" the Pendulum SP-1
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 11-27-2017, 01:55 PM
Spook Spook is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 789
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kittoon View Post
Well , now I have to ask. "Sonically" how does the Grace Designs products compare to the
"crowned jewel" the Pendulum SP-1
Could have worded it better but what I meant was that the Pendulum is what folks bought when they wanted high fidelity and road worthiness. Before the Grace Design products I don't think there was an alternative. I have a Felix, not a Pendulum. Always wanted a Pendulum but could never justify the price. I view it as the next step up though actually, the Felix suits my needs better and I don't plan to change. Also, if you go by what you see in recording forums you'll find the Grace Designs M101, which the input stage of the Alix/Felix are a close copy of, is very highly regarded so I don't think there are a lot of gains to be had outside of well controlled environments.

Doug Young might be able to answer more directly since I think he has both.
__________________
Spook
Southern Oregon

Last edited by Spook; 11-27-2017 at 02:14 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 11-27-2017, 03:00 PM
rockabilly69 rockabilly69 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Ogden, Utah
Posts: 1,108
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spook View Post
A basic DI like a RedEye or Demeter doesn't do what a proper preamp does. Most of us need full EQ, FX loop, notch filters, flexible in/outs, variable input impedance, and footswitch muting control.

When you buy a Grace Design Alix for $600 it's because you need/want all of those things combined with a studio grade input stage. And yea.. you really do hear it if you have good amplification. If you want those things with dual source without a drop in sound quality you get the Felix for $400 more. The current alternative is the next tier down in fidelity or going to studio gear. Problem there is it's not designed for a performance environment meaning it won't be all that sturdy, light, compact, or flexible. Or you can do what folks did before we had the Alix/Felix and get a Pendulum SP-1.
This!!! Neither the Redeye or the Demeter is in the same league features wise. Although they are good sounding units, they fail to address problems that I run into, with all the different rooms that I play in, and the different systems I plug into directly and slave into. Grace preamps are on the same level as Pendulum sonically as I have used both in studios, but The Pendulum with it's three band FULLY parametric EQ, and it's ridiculously flexible routing options is still probably the the king acoustic guitar preamp available, but it's in a rack and that won't work for what I do, so that's why I went with Grace. And before anybody compares a Grace to anything else, they need to learn all of it's capabilities especially regarding the EQ, the different centerpoints on the low end pot alone make a world of difference! And even with all the options on the Grace unit, once you learn them, it's ridiculously easy to dial in a good sound.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 11-29-2017, 11:44 PM
Kittoon Kittoon is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 239
Default

Well, a big brown truck delivered my new Grace Alix today. I spent the evening with the DI box. A problem presented itself immediately. -Because my Venue (and RedEye) are battery powered, I never gave much thought to the electrical plugs in this older mid 1950's house. In my guitar room, half the electrical plugs in the walls have the "third prong" and the other wall plugs are the old fashion two-prong type. "Of course" the wall plug I had in mind for my new DI box turns out to be unusable as it is the "two prong" type! So I ended up with the amp plugged into the west wall and the DI box on the East wall. (Both 3-prong) But... a very annoying "hum" or "buzz" was coming out the amp which has always been DEAD quiet! (I hate 60hz "hum") The only way I found to eliminate the "hum" or "buzz" is to plug both the amp and DI box into the same wall socket be it the west wall or the east wall. I do not quite understand what's going on. Maybe my "third prongs" are not truly tied to ground but shouldn't the "Ground-Lift" function of the DI box take care of this situation? So after fussing for 90 minutes to find a way to eliminate the "hum" I took the box out for a test-drive. I spent a good 3 hours with it. And at one point I said out loud "this is really nice" There is more control of the separation of the notes which allows me to "push" reverb before "going too far" (which is what I want) -There is more of a "creamy" feel. There is so much "headroom" I think I will like this box very much.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 11-30-2017, 06:59 AM
fotofantom fotofantom is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Lakeland, FL
Posts: 149
Default

A possible remedy, or workaround, would be to get a power strip with a long cord. I found one at the local home improvement store with an eight or ten foot cord. Also, an easy way to check the outlets in your house (including the ground connection) would be to get an inexpensive plug-in tester at your local home improvement or hardware store. Mine is a three prong. I don't know if they come in two prong.
__________________
Greg
Yamaha LL16
Yamaha NCX700
Epiphone Dot
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 11-30-2017, 04:35 PM
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 5,807
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spook View Post
Doug Young might be able to answer more directly since I think he has both.
Yes, I still have an SPS-1 and Felix. Sound quality seems equivalent. It's more about form factor, features, and of course, cost. Each has benefits. The Pendulum is more flexible in some ways, with dual line and XLR inputs, stereo effects inserts, and of course 3 bands of fully parametric EQ. The end-pin setup is nice for those who want to use passive pickups, and gives both a "zero" length cable before the first gain stage, and fingertip control. Downside is that it's a rack (for some people, maybe that's a pro?), and it runs $2500 or so.

On the other hand, Felix seems to me to have a better design for performers, both as a floor mount, along with useful features like switchable impedance, a boost switch, high pass filter (*very* useful with K&Ks and other SBTs), a notch filter, etc. The available EQ is ultimately more tuned to what we need than the 3 bands of parametric on the SPS-1, tho both get the job done. Felix is designed around having both DI and amp outputs for an onstage monitor with separate level control, while you can sort of leverage the headphone jack or something, but it's not quite intended for this.

Sonically, both are top-notch, so it comes down to what you want as far as form, cost, features. I usually don't feel like lugging a rack around, tho I really like being able to have the stereo effects insert of the SPS-1. To me that's the only weakness of Felix. Otherwise, it's definitely the ultimate preamp.
__________________
Doug Young
----------------
Music on Pandora
You Tube Channel
website: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com
Fingerstyle Christmas Tunes: A DADGAD Christmas
CDs: Closing Time, Laurel Mill
Pickup tests: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptests/
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 11-30-2017, 05:44 PM
Spook Spook is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 789
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
<snip> Felix is designed around having both DI and amp outputs for an onstage monitor with separate level control...
Nice write up.

My amp out is driving a Palmer tube DI/Pre (PDI-CTC) with a 1/4" unbalanced input and no volume control. You never know what you'll want to hook up.
__________________
Spook
Southern Oregon

Last edited by Spook; 11-30-2017 at 08:25 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 12-02-2017, 08:22 AM
meb meb is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 18
Default

You have peaked my interest in the ALiX. I am currently using the Venue and/or Para DI with my passive Black Angel (or M1) in my Goodalls, and
it sounds very good. My PAs are Bose L1-2 and JBL Eon One.

Are there comments on using soundhole pickups with the Alix?

Any further comparisons with the Venue could nudge me toward a purchase.

Finally, I usually use the XLR out of my Para DI to the JBL and use the Level
control on the Para to adjust volume where I sit. The volume on the
Alix only works with Line Out, not XLR....any concerns there?

Thanks.
__________________
Michael

Goodall HrCJC/German 2012
Goodall RSC 2001
Collings D1 2016
Martin GPCPA5
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 12-02-2017, 10:06 AM
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 5,807
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by meb View Post
YThe volume on the
Alix only works with Line Out, not XLR....any concerns there?
This works well because in the usual setup, you have the line out going to a local source, like your stage amp/monitor, while the XLR is going to the house system where presumably you have a sound person to control the volume. Even if you don't (running your own PA from on stage), the XLR provides a constant output so you can set the gain on your board once, and then you won't affect the audience's levels if you change your stage volume. I suppose they could have had 2 volume controls, but it doesn't seem very useful. Think of a regular passive DI - no volume controls on most of those. Your volume thru the PA is controlled at the mixing board.
__________________
Doug Young
----------------
Music on Pandora
You Tube Channel
website: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com
Fingerstyle Christmas Tunes: A DADGAD Christmas
CDs: Closing Time, Laurel Mill
Pickup tests: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptests/
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Acoustic Amplification

Thread Tools



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=