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  #46  
Old 10-27-2017, 01:17 AM
Guitar Slim II Guitar Slim II is offline
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Originally Posted by mistertomlinson View Post
FINAL DRAFT?

This should be note for note correct now. I had to go back and draw beams for the 16th notes I missed, so the stems could be a little longer as they're a little cramped.

But I still have questions, particularly about bar 4.

1. I feel like the staccato dots on that first chord aren't correct. How would I properly notate that staccato?

2. That second dotted note... that's a dotted rhythm note, right? Not a staccato? So it should be on the side?

3. Do I have the slurs right or should they go UNDER the notes? (This regards all slurs)

4. Is there any (correct) way to make the 4th bar shorter in height? I doubt it, but I thought I'd ask if there was any other way to notate it that would take up less room. Maybe drawing the slur UNDER the notes, but only if this is correct. And maybe there was another way to tie the note from the previous bar... again, only if it's correct. Coincidently, that will go right around the widest part of my forearm, so I guess it's not a big deal.

5. Would someone listen to the 5th bar and tell me what they would do? The E tied from the previous bar doesn't sustain the entire length of the following bar (with the 3/8 time signature). It stops abruptly with that last staccato note in the melody. I feel like that should be specifically notated.

EDIT: Forgot the staccato on the very last note. Writing music is hard.

The Slurs: Either way would convey it, I guess. As a single articulation, like a hammer-on or pull-off, you might want to connect the note heads instead of the stems. But I really like the way it looks in measure 4: like a violin bowing or a piano phrasing. I would leave the others above, as well.

As for the tied note, I wouldn't worry about it too much. You can drive yourself crazy with this stuff. What I think is happening is, he doesn't really care if the note sustains thru the next measure or not. So I would go one of two ways: leave it as is (not plucked, but sustained thru the next measure). Or, don't put a bass note in the next measure at all. But I wouldn't waste time trying to figure out the exact beat in the middle of the 3/8 measure where it cuts off, and then put a rest there. Like I said, you can make yourself crazy.

Like I said, as it is now it looks like a pristine and well-edited classical guitar score. I bet the guys in the band would think it looks great, too...

Last edited by Kerbie; 10-27-2017 at 06:41 AM. Reason: Edited quote
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  #47  
Old 10-27-2017, 01:58 AM
mistertomlinson mistertomlinson is offline
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Originally Posted by Guitar Slim II View Post
You know, I was thinking, do you think James Hetfield might be interested in this story?

I wonder how someone would get word to him?
I'm happy anyone was actually glad to be a part of this. I didn't expect that. Makes me feel like maybe I wasn't wasting people's time.

And I do feel like the staccatos are crucial. It's very deliberately played that way.

As for whether they'd be interested in hearing about it, I'm sure TONS of fans have gotten Metallica tattoos over the decades. They probably wouldn't even give it a second thought.
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  #48  
Old 10-27-2017, 02:57 AM
Guitar Slim II Guitar Slim II is offline
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Originally Posted by mistertomlinson View Post
FINAL DRAFT?
The more I look at this, the more beautiful it looks. I wouldn't mess with it any further. It fully expresses the essence and intent of the music.

And maybe I'm just a geek about this stuff, but I think if I were a tattoo artist, I would be going nuts with ideas of how to do this. Bet you money whoever you show it to is going to be excited.
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  #49  
Old 10-27-2017, 03:15 AM
mistertomlinson mistertomlinson is offline
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Originally Posted by Guitar Slim II View Post
The more I look at this, the more beautiful it looks. I wouldn't mess with it any further. It fully expresses the essence and intent of the music.

And maybe I'm just a geek about this stuff, but I think if I were a tattoo artist, I would be going nuts with ideas of how to do this. Bet you money whoever you show it to is going to be excited.
I appreciate the positive words, man. I think I mentioned in an earlier post, I want it to look freehand. My only condition is that the staff be perfectly straight, but notes, symbols, etc. should look freehand and done with calligraphy. Here are a couple examples I'm bringing them to see if they can do something similar.








I think getting the music tattooed the way it appears printed on paper would be insipid and dull. But having something tastefully hand written seems more artistic and personable to me. If I could get close to the pictures above, I'd be so happy!
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  #50  
Old 10-27-2017, 03:23 AM
Guitar Slim II Guitar Slim II is offline
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Default SORRY!!! One little error

I'm pretty sure you are a 32nd short in measure 4. It looked all cool and symetrical, until I tried to read it, and then something didn't add up. So I plugged it into Finale, which literally will not let you put the incorrect number of beats in a measure, and I came up a 32nd rest short.

That's the value of the DOT ONLY on a dotted 16th. So I added a dot to the last 16th note in the run, and Finale was happy. Actually, that's even more symetrical, since the first 16th in the run is dotted also.

So, if you want it to come out proper, you need to add a 32nd time-value somewhere in that run -- my way or some other.

Wish I could figure out how to upload an image of the darned thing.
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  #51  
Old 10-27-2017, 03:39 AM
mistertomlinson mistertomlinson is offline
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Originally Posted by Guitar Slim II View Post
I'm pretty sure you are a 32nd short in measure 4. It looked all cool and symetrical, until I tried to read it, and then something didn't add up. So I plugged it into Finale, which literally will not let you put the incorrect number of beats in a measure, and I came up a 32nd rest short.

That's the value of the DOT ONLY on a dotted 16th. So I added a dot to the last 16th note in the run, and Finale was happy. Actually, that's even more symetrical, since the first 16th in the run is dotted also.

So, if you want it to come out proper, you need to add a 32nd time-value somewhere in that run -- my way or some other.

Wish I could figure out how to upload an image of the darned thing.
Maybe that would explain why I tried to duplicate that measure in Sibelius and couldn't. Well crap.

I'm still not sure I understand that measure. I don't know exactly what the dotted rhythm note is for. I understand the staccatos. But the other dot is throwing me off... of course, I don't read music. :/

Last edited by mistertomlinson; 10-27-2017 at 03:51 AM.
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  #52  
Old 10-27-2017, 03:48 AM
stanron stanron is offline
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There should be a dot after the last note in measure 4.

In post 18, bar four ends with the dot after the note. By post 42 that dot has migrated to a staccatto mark below the note. It's a very simple typo. I've not checked the rest.

Last edited by stanron; 10-27-2017 at 04:21 AM.
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  #53  
Old 10-27-2017, 04:26 AM
mistertomlinson mistertomlinson is offline
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Originally Posted by stanron View Post
There should be a dot after the last note in measure 4.

In post 18, bar four ends with the dot after the note. By post 42 that dot has migrated to a staccatto mark below the note. It's a very simple typo. I've not checked the rest.
So that's the only issue? It was just the dot. I moved it because I thought it was a staccato. A dot after a note extends the duration of the note, right? But I thought that was staccato. God, I'm so confused.
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  #54  
Old 10-27-2017, 05:44 AM
mistertomlinson mistertomlinson is offline
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What about this for the 4th measure? It sounds pretty close. I'm not sure if the timing is 100%. The hammer-ons and pull-offs sound unnatural, but it might be due to it being software rendered.

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  #55  
Old 10-27-2017, 06:28 AM
stanron stanron is offline
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Originally Posted by mistertomlinson View Post
So that's the only issue? It was just the dot. I moved it because I thought it was a staccato. A dot after a note extends the duration of the note, right? But I thought that was staccato. God, I'm so confused.
Timing in notation is summative. That is you add all the note values, in a bar, together and get the sum indicated in the time signature. The time signature for bar four is 6/8. This means that there are six 1/8 notes in the bar. The convention for 6/8 is that they are grouped in two triplets, ie two groups of three. For the sake of simplicity let's ignore staccato notes and the bass notes.

The first group of three is fairly obvious. It's the rest and the two beamed 1/8 notes. The second group is more complicated. Without the dotted notes it would be one 1/8 note and two pairs of 1/16 notes. These notes have a second line on the beam. There are two of these. Its when you add in the dots that it becomes more complex.

A dot extends the length of a note by half the value of that note. If that note is one of a pair, the following note has to be halved to fit in the same space. So a dotted note is followed by a note with an extra beam.

A 1/16 note dotted becomes 1/16 + 1/32, or 3/32. The note it is paired with is reduced from 1/16 to 1/32 with the added beam line. The sum is now 3/32 + 1/32 = 4/32, which is 2/16, which is 1/8.

Just to make it more complicated the last third of the second triplet has the short note first and the long note second. The sum is the same but the note values are reversed.

Your new version is good but the beaming looks confusing at first sight. I would prefer to see the doubled beam lines not attached to the dotted note.
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  #56  
Old 10-27-2017, 08:04 AM
stanron stanron is offline
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I've just listened to this for the first time and it's cat amongst the pigeons time I'm afraid. First off, it's too slow for 6/8. I'm hearing it as 3/4 and if you want to get the paired bars feel then it would be 6/4. Second, I'm not convinced it's all done on one guitar. If you've seen it done on one guitar then fair enough, just add the three open strings, low E and G and B. I've notated it as a single lead line thusly;

[IMG][/IMG]

With all the tied notes I've decided to miss out the slurs for hammer-ons and pull-offs. That could go on tab if tab was added below.
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  #57  
Old 10-27-2017, 09:52 AM
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vindibona1 vindibona1 is offline
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Originally Posted by mistertomlinson View Post
I'm happy anyone was actually glad to be a part of this. I didn't expect that. Makes me feel like maybe I wasn't wasting people's time.

And I do feel like the staccatos are crucial. It's very deliberately played that way.

As for whether they'd be interested in hearing about it, I'm sure TONS of fans have gotten Metallica tattoos over the decades. They probably wouldn't even give it a second thought.
What about this for the 4th measure? It sounds pretty close. I'm not sure if the timing is 100%. The hammer-ons and pull-offs sound unnatural, but it might be due to it being software rendered.

As far as that fourth measure, I liked your last hand written one better, EXCEPT the 32nd notes should not be separated. Also the slur marking on the 3/8 bar looks like it loops too high.

As far as the staccato should be thought of, while deliberate it still needs to be played as a pickup note to the phrase and should not be thought of in isolation. Though not exactly the same, the dot should be thought of as something similar to an inflection known as a "luftpause" [pronounced: looft-pauwza] the important difference being that even though separated that note carries with it some forward motion. A true luftpause tends to retard the forward motion a bit. Music has so much to be read between the lines, eh?
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  #58  
Old 10-27-2017, 01:23 PM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Itís a Zen paradox. What is the sound of deafening silence?
Right. As John Cage would say, there is no such thing as silence. "Try as we may to make a silence, we cannot." There's always some kind of sounds going on.
The best we can do is "tacet" - as in 4'33", where the musician is silent, and we listen to everything else that's happening. If there's sounds happening anyway, we may as well incorporate them into the performance.

If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
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  #59  
Old 10-27-2017, 02:03 PM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Originally Posted by mistertomlinson View Post
FINAL DRAFT?

This should be note for note correct now. I had to go back and draw beams for the 16th notes I missed, so the stems could be a little longer as they're a little cramped.

But I still have questions, particularly about bar 4.

1. I feel like the staccato dots on that first chord aren't correct. How would I properly notate that staccato?
Strictly speaking, because you now have a bass voice, the staccato dots should go on top, not below the note - i.e. above the top of the stem. (I mentioned this in a previous post.)

Having listened to the original, it's only the top B (melody) note that's staccato anyway (not the octave below).

More important (perhaps), the second guitar doesn't play a B below, it plays the E below - and there is no harmony note under the high C (the previous notes just sustain). I.e. the middle harmony notes are not G-B-B, they're G-E and nothing.
Or rather, that's the first time! The second time seems more like as you've written it.
There's also a subliminal bottom E bass note under the last staccato A note (held across to bar 5), first time, but not second time.
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Originally Posted by mistertomlinson View Post
2. That second dotted note... that's a dotted rhythm note, right? Not a staccato? So it should be on the side?
The way you've timed it, yes it needs an extending dot, but it's also staccato!

The actual timing is more like I showed in post #3. That last A note falls right on the last 8th of the bar, not a 16th before it. So although itneeds a staccato dot, it doesn't need an extending dot.

If you do want the extending dot it goes to the side, level with the top of the notehead to as to avoid the ledger line.
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Originally Posted by mistertomlinson View Post
3. Do I have the slurs right or should they go UNDER the notes? (This regards all slurs)
The slurs are good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mistertomlinson View Post
4. Is there any (correct) way to make the 4th bar shorter in height?
No, not if you're now including the bass E as a separate voice. The spacing above the bar is correct, it's that bass E that means the whole thing is wider.
(The bass E is good notation, mind.)
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Originally Posted by mistertomlinson View Post
5. Would someone listen to the 5th bar and tell me what they would do? The E tied from the previous bar doesn't sustain the entire length of the following bar (with the 3/8 time signature). It stops abruptly with that last staccato note in the melody. I feel like that should be specifically notated.
I don't think so. IMO the shortening is insignificant.

The only other thing I'd suggest is you level off the slopes of the beams a little. They're too extreme at the moment. Check the print versions shown elsewhere.
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  #60  
Old 10-27-2017, 02:44 PM
Guitar Slim II Guitar Slim II is offline
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I wasn't going to get involved in the accuracy of the transcription itself, but that 4th measure continued to bug me, so I gave the recording another listen....

And guys, it's JUST AN ORNAMENT. Write it as a two-note grace note before the B. Doesn't even deserve arguing about from a performer's POV. Written as an ornament, the reader would know immediately what to do.

NO reader i know could sight read the rhythms you guys are throwing around -- not without a lot of stopping, head scratching, addition and subtraction...

Just write it as an ornament!

Last edited by Guitar Slim II; 10-27-2017 at 03:03 PM.
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