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  #61  
Old 03-15-2017, 01:16 AM
Cuki79 Cuki79 is offline
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Congratulations!!!!!

That sounds impressive!!! Did you check the impedance and level of the ouput you use on the XR12? I don't see why you'd get more noise from the Harbinger with the XR than plugged straight in.

Did you try the XR12 on headphones?

Note that the noise may come from the Harbinger preamps and not class D amp stage. There must be an optimum gain staging. However I am not surprise. As we have all discovered in those various threads. In those units they kind of save on the preamps and mixer features... That's also why the HK nano also comes now in a "raw" version without Mixer.

Note: The XR12 is known and was measured to be quiet (mic inputs). However the High-impedance inputs are also known to have limited gain. Maybe you are asking too much there, how much gain did you set on the guitar?

Here are measurements made on the XR and UI by a guy on the gearpage forum (or was it gearslutz ?)

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  #62  
Old 03-15-2017, 02:21 AM
NotValid NotValid is offline
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Originally Posted by martingitdave View Post
Ok fellow nerds...

I did it. I spent 2 hours and recreated the TC Helicon Play Acoustic (baseline) settings with the XR mixer. As per my post above, I copied the settings over.

As far as the tricky "ambiance" component is concerned, Cuki was right about it being a subtle reverb tail. Even better, the XR comes with "Ambiance" reverb effect. I thought to myself "nah, it couldn't be that easy, could it?" It was. My "home made" BodyRez feature works perfectly. I ended up modeling BodyRez 1, which is the default version for the stomp box. Actually, I made two versions. One with the enhanced bass and low cut shelf, and one that had a flat low cut shelf. Bye bye piezo quack!

For the vocals, I added the components above. The para EQ for vocals was the hardest part. I ended up referring to a few websites for sound engineers. I created two "ideal" models for male and female singers from their instructions. I made the male a Tenor voice part model. The female is Mezzo Soprano. Besides para EQ, I added the rest of the TC Helicon vocal "recipe" including gate, low cut, compressor, sibilance filter, hall reverb, and a touch of doubling.

The obvious questions are "why bother?", and "why not just use the pedal you already have?" No worries, I'll use the TC pedal when I'm by myself going into a PA. I'll have the basic foot switch control handy. And, I might dabble in harmonies. However, if I find myself playing with one or more people, I now have 4 virtual "mic mechanic 2" pedals available, and at least 2 (high z input) virtual "BodyRez" pedals. Each with a couple of options programmed in. The other 6 channels can be whatever they want. However, other instruments will need an impedance matching DI, because this unit comes with only 2 (high z) channels that I am dedicating to acoustic guitars.

On the negative side, I found that the noise floor emanating from the Harbinger MLS800 class D amplifier is higher than I would like. A lot higher. It's definitely coming from the final stage of amplification. I think I'll box it up and take it back to GC Thursday. I'll probably order a JBL EON One, TurboSound iP500, 1000, or 2000 or Maui 5. I might also consider the Evox.

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And the Merry-go-round keeps on goin around. What will Dave get next? Stay tuned for the next episode of "Dave's Compact PA System Adventures"..........
Brought to you to GC, because Dave is in there every second day. Lol
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  #63  
Old 03-15-2017, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Cuki79 View Post
Congratulations!!!!!

That sounds impressive!!! Did you check the impedance and level of the ouput you use on the XR12? I don't see why you'd get more noise from the Harbinger with the XR than plugged straight in.

Did you try the XR12 on headphones?

Note that the noise may come from the Harbinger preamps and not class D amp stage. There must be an optimum gain staging. However I am not surprise. As we have all discovered in those various threads. In those units they kind of save on the preamps and mixer features... That's also why the HK nano also comes now in a "raw" version without Mixer.

Note: The XR12 is known and was measured to be quiet (mic inputs). However the High-impedance inputs are also known to have limited gain. Maybe you are asking too much there, how much gain did you set on the guitar?

Here are measurements made on the XR and UI by a guy on the gearpage forum (or was it gearslutz ?)

Cuki


Hi Cuki,

The high pitched "hiss" noise is coming from the array with nothing plugged into to any input channel on the built in mixer, all gains turned to zero, and the Bluetooth off. It might be a preamp, because it gets louder with the gain is turned up on the speaker input channel. But since the noise was present with the gain turned off, I thought it might be the amp. It was probably there Sunday when I bought it. I just didn't notice it.

The XR mixer is quiet for sure! It seems to be made with quality electronics. The gains were fine on the high Z. I was pleasantly surprised. Only had them set to 5dB. The gain on those high Z inputs is limited to 10dB, I think. But, all my guitars have strong onboard preamps. That's why I figured I'd reserve them for my guitars. Passive piezo or mag pickups might be too weak. It's not staged exactly like an acoustic guitar amplifier. Even my electric guitar has passive and active pickups, so I can use the amp sim through the high Z effectively.

Mic preamps for the E835s were 15dB. There was way more headroom, if needed for weak dynamic mics or condensers.

I'll check the power too. It might just be a defective power supply in the amp. It's a new house and I have clean power there. None of my other equipment is/was noisy.

*shrug*


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Last edited by martingitdave; 03-15-2017 at 06:11 AM.
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  #64  
Old 03-15-2017, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by NotValid View Post
And the Merry-go-round keeps on goin around. What will Dave get next? Stay tuned for the next episode of "Dave's Compact PA System Adventures"..........

Brought to you to GC, because Dave is in there every second day. Lol
Ha ha! It never ends. Gotta admit, I was bummed. I though I had it worked out with the cheap speaker. Harbinger is fine for hobby use, but maybe just not good enough for people used to working with pro equipment.

I will publicly admit that Ken was right, again. I wonder if Ken (SpruceTop) gets tired of being right all the time? :-). I certainly get tired of being wrong most of the time. Though, I try to make new mistakes as often as possible.

He suggested exchanging for the JBL One or Turbosound iP2000. I think he's right. Those were the ones I thought were the best in the sub $1000 price range. I'm tossing the iP1000 in for consideration too. If I can get a full refund, I'll consider an EVOX 5 or 8.

I'll use either the XR mixer or the TC Play Acoustic before the JBL, if that's what I get. Both have low cut and feedback protection missing in the JBL onboard mixer. I have to use something with the Turbosound regardless. The menu driven DSP/mixer seems fairly worthless for real use.

The benefit of the JBL is that, in theory, I can use it straight up with their basic reverb and EQ.

But, after setting up the XR mixer last night, I feel empowered and equipped for any future speaker challenge. (humor attempt)

Off to my real job.

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  #65  
Old 03-15-2017, 07:16 AM
Cuki79 Cuki79 is offline
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Ha ha! It never ends. [...] Though, I try to make new mistakes as often as possible.
lol someone very wise in this forum once write about finding the perfect guitar something like that:

"No matter what you do, you will have to try all the different guitars (Martin dreads, Gibson slope shoulders, Taylor GA...) and by "trying" I mean "owning" them... Only at the end you will know what suits you best." I don't remember who wrote that but from my signature, you'd see that I now agree...

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Originally Posted by martingitdave View Post
I'll consider an EVOX 5 or 8.
Too bad I can't find the magazine with the review.... I've looked everywhere in the house but maybe I threw it away.

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Originally Posted by martingitdave View Post
I wonder if Ken (SpruceTop) gets tired of being right all the time?
I wonder how many pedals, mixer, P.A. and amps SpruceTop have tried/own...

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  #66  
Old 03-15-2017, 07:27 AM
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Default Dave's compact PA system adventures...

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Originally Posted by Cuki79 View Post
lol someone very wise in this forum once write about finding the perfect guitar something like that:



"No matter what you do, you will have to try all the different guitars (Martin dreads, Gibson slope shoulders, Taylor GA...) and by "trying" I mean "owning" them... Only at the end you will know what suits you best." I don't remember who wrote that but from my signature, you'd see that I now agree...





Too bad I can't find the magazine with the review.... I've looked everywhere in the house but maybe I threw it away.





I wonder how many pedals, mixer, P.A. and amps SpruceTop have tried/own...



Cuki


He told us once. It was a lot. IIRC the only thing under $1000 he liked using was the Line 6, which I just sold. Ha! He did suggest the Eon One, which seems to be the conventional AGF wisdom.

I just read the reviews for the iP2000. The sub weighs 55 lbs. That's not really very compact, or portable, in my book. I'm back to the iP1000 or the JBL.

I realize that I haven't asked for your opinion Cuki. Which would you choose and why?




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  #67  
Old 03-15-2017, 07:53 AM
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Hey Dave,

I'm in the same search right now. Been using a pair of Mackie SRM 450s for tops and two JBL EON10s for monitors. I like the sound, but its a lot to set up.

I have three local musician friends who all do acoustic gigs and bought the Turbosound IP2000 and all love it. I'm very tempted to buy one. One hesitation is the 55 pound sub as you mentioned. If I move away from my current system, it will be to simplify and cut down on weight. I've thought about the Maui 5 and the JBL One, but clearly the IP2000 has way more headroom than those choices and I'd hate to find myself in a situation where I don't have enough power.

I'll be curious to hear where you end up!!!
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  #68  
Old 03-15-2017, 08:07 AM
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Hey Dave,



I'm in the same search right now. Been using a pair of Mackie SRM 450s for tops and two JBL EON10s for monitors. I like the sound, but its a lot to set up.



I have three local musician friends who all do acoustic gigs and bought the Turbosound IP2000 and all love it. I'm very tempted to buy one. One hesitation is the 55 pound sub as you mentioned. If I move away from my current system, it will be to simplify and cut down on weight. I've thought about the Maui 5 and the JBL One, but clearly the IP2000 has way more headroom than those choices and I'd hate to find myself in a situation where I don't have enough power.



I'll be curious to hear where you end up!!!


I'm right there with you StratCat. Based on my experience with the new mixer, I like the idea of the iP2000. I can lift 55lbs. And it's not like I am going to lift it very often. My rehearsal space is in the basement up and down a large flight of steps with a tight turn through the main level. I envision lots of paint/mud repair on those wall corners. :-)

How do your friends cope with the weight of the sub. Is it awkward to lift?

My only hesitation with the JBL is using my mixer with the onboard mixer. The gain stages on the JBL are oddly low on the line settings. Others here do seem to get by ok. I wish it had dual XLR line inputs. Then, the decision would be easier.




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  #69  
Old 03-15-2017, 08:31 AM
Stratcat77 Stratcat77 is offline
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I'm right there with you StratCat. Based on my experience with the new mixer, I like the idea of the iP2000. I can lift 55lbs. And it's not like I am going to lift it very often. My rehearsal space is in the basement up and down a large flight of steps with a tight turn through the main level. I envision lots of paint/mud repair on those wall corners. :-)

How do your friends cope with the weight of the sub. Is it awkward to lift?

My only hesitation with the JBL is using my mixer with the onboard mixer. The gain stages on the JBL are oddly low on the line settings. Others here do seem to get by ok. I wish it had dual XLR line inputs. Then, the decision would be easier.

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Actually, none of my buddies have complained about the weight. Really, 55 pounds isn't bad - I'm not THAT old! I used to do the full "rock band club scene" for years and compared to the big systems and amps I used for that, this is nothing! The JBL One looks interesting, but doesn't appear to have near the power of the Turbosound. It would be nice to think I could do a solo acoustic gig with the JBL with no mixer, but from what I'm reading, the gain issue you mention is a problem without an external mixer.

The ability to make adjustments remotely with Bluetooth on the Turbo is cool too.
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  #70  
Old 03-15-2017, 08:34 AM
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Actually, none of my buddies have complained about the weight. Really, 55 pounds isn't bad - I'm not THAT old! I used to do the full "rock band club scene" for years and compared to the big systems and amps I used for that, this is nothing! The JBL One looks interesting, but doesn't appear to have near the power of the Turbosound. It would be nice to think I could do a solo acoustic gig with the JBL with no mixer, but from what I'm reading, the gain issue you mention is a problem without an external mixer.



The ability to make adjustments remotely with Bluetooth on the Turbo is cool too.


Seems like we're all seeing these units the same way. 55 lbs is not too heavy for a professional gigging musician to expect to carry. But, I'm not doing the pro thing, so lighter is better for me. If one 8" sub was enough for me, two should be more than enough. I'm going to inquire about the iP1000 at GC for an exchange. If they can't do it, I'll look at the JBL.

A nice review of the iP1000. The downsides in transporting seem to be that the column is one piece. Eek. I guess that's better than a 55 lb sub. Maybe.

Edit:

Reconciling the two threads I've been posting in with my newly found conclusions:

1. The Harbinger is fine for hobbyists. But, I will be returning it. There is a distinct hiss from the column with the gains turned off and nothing plugged it. I confirmed it is not a power quality issue.

2. I ordered the XR12 Air digital mixer. I was able to reverse engineer the TC Play Acoustic pedal that I use. I was able to replicate the vocal tone and vocal effects from the TC unit into presets on the mixer. I also replicated the full BodyRez 1 preset and made a second copy with a 100Hz low end shelf. I figured out the "ambience" setting, which was easier than I expected. Thanks Cuki! They sound good. Really good.

3. Since I will have a credit a GC, I will probably have to purchase my new unit from them. Unless I want a $700 gift certificate. I don't.

4. Of the brands they carry, I'm down to two units. The JBL Eon One (surprise surprise... everyone likes it) and the Turbosound iP1000 (the iP200 is too big and heavy for my needs.)

Between the two, the 10" woofer in the JBL looks like a better solution for my use. I don't need the extra SPL from dual 8"s, but the better frequency response from a 10" is attractive. The basic (2) XLR input mixer on the iP1000 looks better than the JBL for use with my new XR12 mixer. I expect to predominantly use either the TC Play Acoustic or XR12 mixer. I suppose I can set the JBLs to line, run the channels flat, and be satisfied. Fingers crossed. I also like that the JBL built in mixer is more functional than the iP1000, if I just need to plug in and go.

The two built in mixers each have a glaring omission. The JBL doesn't seem to have an independent sub control or low cut filter, or dedicated XLR line inputs for a mixer. While the iP1000 solves those issues, they have no individual channel EQ (just a master) and no reverb.

The JBL is lighter and MUCH easier to carry. The cost difference isn't a factor. Looks like I'll probably walk out with the JBL tonight or tomorrow. Just have to put the other one back in the boxes! :-)

Incidentally, StratCat, it looks like there may be no power disadvantage to the JBL Eon One. From what I've read, the iP1000 is 1,000 watts max peak. The 380W ratings for the JBL (250W LF + 130W HF) are, evidently, based on RMS or continuous power. I would guess, assuming a 30% ratio, that the iP1000 will be closer to 300W RMS. Someone please chime in if you know these specs.



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Last edited by martingitdave; 03-15-2017 at 11:34 AM.
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  #71  
Old 03-15-2017, 11:47 AM
Cuki79 Cuki79 is offline
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I realize that I haven't asked for your opinion Cuki. Which would you choose and why?
I have no idea. Turbosound has one bad review of mechanical stability in a french forum.

I'd probably wait for JBL to solve the line input gain problem and include the DSP-bluetooth-phone/tablet combo with EON connect app (available on JBL EON 600 series).

Harman has a strong integration policy (may be stronger than Behringer-Music group). Digitech trio uses Band in a box sounds and patterns. Soundcraft UI uses digitech guitar modelling, Lexicon reverb and dbx antifeedback.

In the future there is a good probability that JBL make a line array with everything in a box.

I think the goal of the portable line array is to have one box with "almost" everything. Bose L1C is very close but I want a 200Hz crossover, no Tonematch correction on the guitar input and parametric EQ. Now all companies make too many compromises to go under 1000$.

And I don't want any compromise. If I have to make compromises, I can stay with what I have. Every year there are new products. The HK nano 608i is the first of its kind but it is definitely the future. Soundcraft has just released the UI24R with studer preamps... There will make a v2.0 of the ui12 and ui18 with all problem solved and by then probably many good things will be transfered to JBL.

At some point also, someone will release something that really compete with Bose and push Bose to update the L1C.

I think time will give us the answer.

I once visited Agilent Technologies (Former Hewlett Packard and now Keysight) and one of the directors told me: We have the technology,we have the product but the market is ready to spend 1$ and the product costs 2$. So we are not ready yet. Then the guy showed me a box openned it and put out an optical mouse. he said "That's how we made the most money, it's pretty stupid, does not have great technology... But we sold thousands of them".

I bet our dream PA exists somewhere in Bose, JBL, HK, Turbosound or LD systems labs... It just does not yet cost the price you are willing to pay for.

Martingitdave, from your previous adventures (D-28A 37 and D-28 centennial), I would say you will not stop until you will find the exact answer to your need.

Are you really sure that something on the market suits exactly your need?

I seriously doubt it.

What I would do:
* I would use studio monitors with an all analog quality preamp-mixer path at home for solo rehearsal. No digital stuff... Just your voice and a great Martin with good mic and preamp. If you sound good this way... Then you are good.

* For small size gig, I would use the XR12 with anything (JBL or Harbinger... whatever). Save money and wait for the real thing to be released. Because it will.

Cuki
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Old 03-15-2017, 12:19 PM
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I have no idea. Turbosound has one bad review of mechanical stability in a french forum.

I'd probably wait for JBL to solve the line input gain problem and include the DSP-bluetooth-phone/tablet combo with EON connect app (available on JBL EON 600 series).

Harman has a strong integration policy (may be stronger than Behringer-Music group). Digitech trio uses Band in a box sounds and patterns. Soundcraft UI uses digitech guitar modelling, Lexicon reverb and dbx antifeedback.

In the future there is a good probability that JBL make a line array with everything in a box.

I think the goal of the portable line array is to have one box with "almost" everything. Bose L1C is very close but I want a 200Hz crossover, no Tonematch correction on the guitar input and parametric EQ. Now all companies make too many compromises to go under 1000$.

And I don't want any compromise. If I have to make compromises, I can stay with what I have. Every year there are new products. The HK nano 608i is the first of its kind but it is definitely the future. Soundcraft has just released the UI24R with studer preamps... There will make a v2.0 of the ui12 and ui18 with all problem solved and by then probably many good things will be transfered to JBL.

At some point also, someone will release something that really compete with Bose and push Bose to update the L1C.

I think time will give us the answer.

I once visited Agilent Technologies (Former Hewlett Packard and now Keysight) and one of the directors told me: We have the technology,we have the product but the market is ready to spend 1$ and the product costs 2$. So we are not ready yet. Then the guy showed me a box openned it and put out an optical mouse. he said "That's how we made the most money, it's pretty stupid, does not have great technology... But we sold thousands of them".

I bet our dream PA exists somewhere in Bose, JBL, HK, Turbosound or LD systems labs... It just does not yet cost the price you are willing to pay for.

Martingitdave, from your previous adventures (D-28A 37 and D-28 centennial), I would say you will not stop until you will find the exact answer to your need.

Are you really sure that something on the market suits exactly your need?

I seriously doubt it.

What I would do:
* I would use studio monitors with an all analog quality preamp-mixer path at home for solo rehearsal. No digital stuff... Just your voice and a great Martin with good mic and preamp. If you sound good this way... Then you are good.

* For small size gig, I would use the XR12 with anything (JBL or Harbinger... whatever). Save money and wait for the real thing to be released. Because it will.

Cuki
Great post! I think you hit the nail on the head. There is no perfect answer.

We're all just trying to decide between the products that are out. To date, everyone was trying to beat the Bose L1C. Eventually, Bose did that with the Bose L1S. For the others, they try to compete with the L1C with either: substantially lower price (Turbosound and Harbinger); sound quality/power (JBL); or flexibility (all of the above).

No one has seemed to get the best of the L1 M2, but it costs $3,000, and not too many companies want to "dabble" in that high priced market. Most people are willing to buy the L1M2, at that price, because they trust the Bose brand.

Like you also pointed out, HK, and others, are trying to muscle in on the L1S or L1M2 market with the Nano 608i by under-cutting price, adding features, and more technology. It just doesn't sound as good as the L1S or L1M2.

I'm sure the "perfect" system IS sitting on someone's workbench with a required retail price of $2,500. And, no one would buy it. "For $500 more you can get a Bose L1M2!" :-)

As far as my personal obsession (there is no other word that adequately describes my ability to become consumed with an idea) with sound systems, I really don't need ANYTHING but a Loudbox Mini. But, what fun would that be?!

As far a comparing myself to the guys who do this for a living, I'd rate myself as a very strong singer and good (maybe above average) guitar player.

I can do the quiet folk stuff easily with a mic. But, my voice and guitar sound best in our home's beautiful, resonant, and natural light filled music room, sitting on my favorite cushioned stool. :-) If I could package that room and feeling up, and take it with me, I'd be a folk music super star. :-)

It never sounds as good through any mic, amp, or PA in the rec room downstairs, or the local bar, or our club venue, etc. This is the reason that I put so much emphasis on leading acoustic music song sharing groups. I truly love making acoustic music. Especially, with other people participating. It brings me joy.

It's just the engineer in me that likes the (impossible) challenge of trying to replicate the acoustic environment in silicone chips. Oh, and, occasionally, I need a system to do some actual performing. A minor consideration really. ;-)

I have the capability of singing VERY loud, I play loud Martin Dreadnoughts or 12-String guitar, and I don't want to play in bars anymore.

In reality, I seldom actually NEED amplification.

LOL

...pst... Don't tell anyone. They won't read my threads.
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Old 03-15-2017, 02:42 PM
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No one has seemed to get the best of the L1 M2, but it costs $3,000, and not too many companies want to "dabble" in that high priced market. Most people are willing to buy the L1M2, at that price, because they trust the Bose brand.
First time I've tried the Bose L1M2 (with Tonematch mixer) I was shocked. Singing into this was unreal, I could hear my voice as if it was in my head because of the "non localization" 180 thing. So I had to own this thing and I did buy it.

Later I realized it was a total overkill for my need and I did eventually find it to sound "digital" and cold. I had to let it go when I first had a Custom Shop Les Paul reissue in my hands (another big shock)

The Bose L1mII is still the very best thing for the application it is meant for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by martingitdave View Post
It's just the engineer in me that likes the (impossible) challenge of trying to replicate the acoustic environment in silicone chips. Oh, and, occasionally, I need a system to do some actual performing.
I am suprised the engineer in you did not push you to build your own by yourself. I started the IR process because I was tired of waiting for a pickup solution and saw the potential of combining IR convolution and the Baggs Lyric.

Now my dream would be to have the time to:

* Find or make a stereo TA amulet. Because I really think the first 3 strings (EAD) and next 3 strings (GBE) would benefit from having a separate IR. With stereo IR, it would lead to 4 ouputs. It means I need 4 channels digital DSP but it's no big deal since many DSPs are meant for Dolby 5.1.

* Those 4 ouputs would be 4 speakers or 4 exciters ona flat wood panel and a Bass reflex tuned to the soundhole-box resonance of my D-18.

* Finally I would add a second "stage" with its own box with BMR speakers all round to have my vocals "non localized" like when you sing in your bathroom but without the room resonance. Note I would not go Bose Line array way but more the Bose 901 original idea.

I nearly have all the pieces at home now (BMRs, exciters, amps, power supply, DSP developpement board...) But I have not the time and courage to start.

PS: One thing I am sure is that in my amplification dream. Vocals and guitar are not amplified by the same amp.

lol
Cuki
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  #74  
Old 03-15-2017, 03:01 PM
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martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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First time I've tried the Bose L1M2 (with Tonematch mixer) I was shocked. Singing into this was unreal, I could hear my voice as if it was in my head because of the "non localization" 180 thing. So I had to own this thing
Yup!

Quote:
and I did buy it.
Nope. Wife would kill me, or I'd have to kill myself, if I spent $3,200 on a speaker. Even if I saw Angels when I sang through it. I went with the Fishman SA220, instead. She only groused.

Quote:
Later I realized it was a total overkill for my need and I did eventually find it to sound "digital" and cold.
Sounds familiar! Bye bye Fishman SA220.

Quote:
The Bose L1mII is still the very best thing for the application it is meant for.
Agreed!

Quote:
I am suprised the engineer in you did not push you to build your own by yourself.
Slow down Cow Poke, I'm not that kind of engineer. I considered it when I was younger and built lots of computers, servers, and bread board electronics stuff. I even worked as an IT guy to help pay for college. But, now I only dabble in computers and electronics. I build BIG stuff for a living. Real BIG stuff. :-)

Quote:
Now my dream would be to have the time to:
...practice my music. And, not spend 70 hours a week commuting, in front of a computer, in meetings, or on job sites. Not to mention family activities and domestic duties.

Quote:
PS: One thing I am sure is that in my amplification dream. Vocals and guitar are not amplified by the same amp.
Cuki, you're the only one who understand me. [weeping tears of joy...]
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  #75  
Old 03-15-2017, 03:10 PM
Paultergeist Paultergeist is offline
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Originally Posted by Cuki79 View Post
.....PS: One thing I am sure is that in my amplification dream. Vocals and guitar are not amplified by the same amp.
That is indeed a valid consideration, but I found the perfect solution: don't sing. For my voice, this ended up making the wife, the neighbors, and the dog much happier....
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