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#1
12-17-2012, 01:11 PM
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Thumb position for beginners?
I wrap my thumb as do most of my fav players. Is it wrong to teach a beginner to do this from the beginning?
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#2
12-17-2012, 05:10 PM
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Okay, we're talking about the left thumb, yes?
I've always played with the neck resting in the angle between my thumb and fingers. Turns out, it doesn't work that well, and really limits my playing. I'm trying to retrain myself with the thumb on the underside of the neck, giving my fingers more stretch and flexibility. Once I get the hang of it, I hope to play much better. Try several positions; I think that, unless you have really long fingers, you'll find the thumb-under position is the best.
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Old Folkies never die; they just come unstrung.
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#3
12-17-2012, 05:19 PM
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Michael,
I think that you need to learn to do both. You need to place your thumb in the middle of the back of the neck (for certain things) and you need to be able to move to a wrap position (for certain things.) You can be predominately one or the other but you really should learn to do both. Willie
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Working with my head down, trying to keep the groove alive https://soundcloud.com/willie-johnson-jr
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#4
12-17-2012, 06:25 PM
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Thumb on the back gives the fingers more reach.
The other reason it's recommended for classical guitar is those guitars have wider, flatter necks. It's a lot harder to play anything with thumb over the top, than it is on a steel-string. One reason most rock players play with thumb over most of the time is simply because they can; they are experienced enough (and the guitar necks are narrow enough) that thumb over is no inhibition, at least when playing simple stuff (as they usually are). IOW, it's a comfortable lazy position they can get away with. Plus, of course, certain bending and vibrato techniques (not part of classical repertoire) require thumb over. For beginners, whose hands are not flexible, it's good (IMO) to recommend classical fret hand position, partly because it does feel so unnatural. The obvious way to hold a guitar neck (in the palm)is an easy habit to get into, but makes playing most things more difficult. But - I fully agree with willie - all kinds of fret hand position are useful at different times. It would be as wrong to fix oneself in classical position as it would be to fix oneself in rock position. The point about thumb behind - as I say - is it needs to be encouraged as an option at least, because few beginners would hit on it naturally. But I wouldn't push it exclusively on a student unless they really were learning classical only. The important thing is to keep an eye on how well they play in whatever position they're in. If they can't do something with thumb over, try it with thumb behind.
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#5
12-17-2012, 07:41 PM
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The important thing for you to worry about is your wrist angle. Try to keep your wrist nice and straight, and a little space between your palm and the guitar neck, and the thumb should naturally fall in the right location. The reason classical players have their thumb so far down on the neck is because they play with the guitar cocked up at a 45 degree angle. If the wrist is straight, this will naturally cause the thumb to sit lower on the neck. When you lower the guitar down to where the neck is parallel to the floor, it opens your elbow up, and if you keep your wrist straight, your thumb will naturally ride up the neck. Trying to play with a "classical" thumb position with the guitar in "folk" or "rock" or "bluegrass" position will put a lot of stress on your left hand and can cause fatigue or even injury. At the very least, it will inhibit your potential to play to the best of your ability. Likewise, if you play with the guitar in classical position, but try to force your thumb up like Hendrix or Tony Rice, you're going to hurt yourself.
Also, when I say keep your wrist straight, I don't mean stiff. Two different things. And that's just your default. If you have to bend your wrist temporarily to make a tough stretch, or play a barre chord, or bend a note, it's ok. I like to illustrate my points with videos of the best. Me talking about it is just words, but watch these guys. Don't feel like you have to watch each video in its entirety, I'm just illustrating my point: Scott Fore, National Flatpicking Champion. Note how straight both of his wrists are for the entirety of this (very difficult) arrangement, even when he's fretting on the bass strings. Near perfect example of flawless right and left hand technique. Bryan Sutton. Again, note the wrist, and how he allows his thumb to ride pretty high up the neck. This is due to the guitar neck being parallel to the floor. Johann Pachelbel. Johann is a fairly high level classical guitarist. Note that the left hand looks completely different...but the wrist is still kept relatively straight. This is due almost entirely to the angle of the guitar neck. Because of this, and the wider neck, you don't even see his thumb. But the wrist is kept straight throughout. Michael Lucarelli. If you need more evidence, here's another classical guy. Note the wrist. I hope that wasn't overkill. I just find that a lot of people focus way too much on the thumb, when thumb placement is merely a product of other (more important) things. There are a million videos I could have used to illustrate this, because most high level players keep their wrists very straight (even if they don't know they're doing it). It's just good technique.
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#6
12-17-2012, 08:04 PM
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What terrific advice and examples above--they're all correct, imo. I pay attention to how my hand feels. If you are gripping and have to shake out an aching hand, you're doing it wrong. (It's easy to unconsciously strangle the guitar neck if you have your thumb over and are learning something difficult) The fingertips can hurt at first but anything else hurting (wrist, muscles across the palm of your hand, the pad of your thumb, knuckles) means (barring some idiopathic disease, of course) that you should fix your left hand position. I generally only play thumb in back when I'm barring or a stretch requires it or I'm playing A/G# or during my required five minutes a day of playing open chords with the thumb back there--part of my current daily practice routine.
My general advice that goes beyond this question is that, in learning an instrument, if you learn it wrong, it'll take 10 or 100 times as much time to fix it later (when it starts to interfere with your ability to progress as an intermediate player) as it will take to learn it right in the first place.
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#7
12-17-2012, 08:32 PM
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Just one more example...not to harp on the wrist thing, but it's important. Go ahead and make a fist with your left hand, and squeeze it as tight as you can. Notice how, without even thinking about it, your wrist naturally goes straight. That's because a straight wrist gives you the most strength. Now, continuing to hold your fist as tight as possible, start bending your wrist back and forth. Feel the strain? That's what you're subjecting yourself to when you play with poor technique. Always play from a position of strength. The harder you have to strain, the more fatigue (and eventually, injury) will set in.
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#8
12-17-2012, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
As a teacher, I find that nothing which a student has learned is permanent nor unchangeable. If at a future date they need to add to their list of skills (and thumb wrap is a skill) then it's easy enough to add other skills to the package. So if in a specific passage a player needs to ride the thumb behind the neck, it's ok to unwrap the thumb long enough to glide it. It's easy enough to return it to the mix.
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Baby #1.1 Baby #1.2 Baby #02 Baby #03 Baby #04 Baby #05 Larry's songs... …Just because you've argued someone into silence doesn't mean you have convinced them…
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#9
12-18-2012, 04:45 AM
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Try this test. For people fretting with left hand (i.e. normal right hander).Wrap the thumb round the neck and hold down say 6th string, 1st fret. Then, without moving your left hand at all see how far you can reach with your pinkie up the fretboard on 1st string. Tough? Then place thumb in middle of back of neck and do the same; you can probably get 3-5 frets higher?
That to me is the main issue for beginners, Wrapping the thumb severely retsricts access to the fretboard. So try to place it behind the neck (and use as little pressure as poss). Then later, once you've learnt the basics, by all means try thumb wrapping for certain chords/songs (particualrly helpful as alt to barre chords for some).
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#10
12-18-2012, 05:31 AM
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Quote:
I.e, when seated, transferring the guitar from classical left leg to rock(etc) right leg, the left wrist and arm angles should remain the same. The angle of the neck obviously lowers, becoming near horizontal. But there's no reason for the hand/wrist/arm position to change. The more one's elbow opens out - you're right - the less comfortable it is to maintain classical thumb-behind position; it distorts the wrist too much, as you say. But the answer is not to change thumb position to keep the wrist comfortable; the answer is not to let the elbow open out. The optimum elbow angle is 90 degrees (or less), and it's quite easy to maintain this with the guitar on the right leg; or indeed when standing with a strap. A straighter arm - keeping a straight wrist, with thumb over or (worse) parallel with the neck - means the fingers are much more inihibited in their movement. However, this is not necessarily a problem for playing simple rock stuff on a narrow-neck guitar - which is why such positions are so common! But when playing acoustic seated, I think one should not let the elbow open out too much (pushing the neck forward or down); it puts the fingers at an inefficient, sloping angle. Again, it will work on simpler stuff, but is inhibiting for anything where the fingers need to stretch more. (And for beginners, of course, stretching is a common issue.) Quote:
What you call ""folk" or "rock" or "bluegrass" position" means thumb over (to maintain the straight wrist), and is fine for certain things. But proper classical left arm position - right angle elbow, thumb behind - is perfectly good in any of those genres (seated or standing), and is actually better when anything complex or stretchy is required. Quote:
The thumb is mostly behind the neck - generally visible over the top, but rarely wrapping over. Clearly the wrist and hand position is comfortable, relaxed, and does the job. But as I say, none of that is very demanding of the left hand (in terms of stretching at least). Quote:
 .Quote:
The bigger the stretches required, the better it is to have the thumb on back of the neck (roughly central), and positioned in between index and pinky, or maybe opposite middle finger, so it supports all the fingers equally. The tighter elbow angle also (along with the lower thumb position) makes it easier on the fingers, by allowing them to reach further across the neck. But there are also positions between these two, which are quite common in various popular styles. I never play in strict classical position (even when playing classical pieces), but I often play with a left hand position quite similar to classical, at least if playing blues or folk fingerstyle, or rock or jazz barre chords with big stretches. Quote:
I agree with you about the importance of a straight wrist, but I also think the elbow angle is critical. 90 degrees optimum, as I said. It can be less (as in classical) it can be a little more (as in most folk/rock positions). But the more it opens out, the worse it is for general fretting finger movement. (And beginners do have a tendency to straighten their elbows too much, as well as distort their wrists by laying the guitar flat so they can see what they're doing  .)I've found that if one thinks about elbow and wrist, the thumb position more or less takes care of itself. (It will be different in any case for open chords or barre chords, for scale/melody playing or for blues bending.)
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#11
12-18-2012, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
__________________
There are still so many beautiful things to be said in C major... Sergei Prokofiev
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#12
12-18-2012, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Good players don't always play in what is the best way for a beginner to play. They don't choose a position because it's the best, but because it's comfortable for them, for that particular moment. Their hands are flexible, and many things are easy enough for them in "lazy" positions. But it is good to study many different players, and look at how and when they vary their positions, and what kind of things they're playing when they do. Maybe they have their thumb over because it's comfortable and doesn't inhibit what they're playing? Or maybe they're doing it to give themselves an anchor/pivot for vibrato or bending? IOW - as said above - thumb position is only one aspect, dependent on other stuff. Study everything. I always liked this position Slash used to adopt:  Notice his left hand is perfect, even in classical convention: thumb behind in order to give his fingers maximum reach and stretch, no doubt for some fast high solo playing. Other times, of course, he'd wear it low slung - and the left hand position would reflect the simpler kinds of things he'd be playing then, where thumb over (or bent wrist) wouldn't inhibit him too much. And of course showmanship plays a big part in any rock player's style. Many positions are adopted because they look cool, as long as what they have to play is still playable there, even if a different position might make it a little easier. Eg, we wouldn't advise beginners to pick with their teeth, just because that genius Hendrix did! He didn't do that because it was easier, but because it looked cool, and because he could.
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#13
12-18-2012, 08:58 AM
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[QUOTE=Mtn Man;3281478]
Johann Pachelbel. Johann is a fairly high level classical guitarist. Note that the left hand looks completely different...but the wrist is still kept relatively straight. This is due almost entirely to the angle of the guitar neck. Because of this, and the wider neck, you don't even see his thumb. But the wrist is kept straight throughout. Johann Pachelbel is the composer. The guitarist's name name Per-Olov Kindgren. Just to clarify.
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