[Help!] Unwanted bell-like overtone/sympathetic sound

ohnno · #1 10-20-2010, 04:58 PM

Hi guys,

Been having a problem lately with my martin omc-28e that I can't seem to get rid of - and neither can my luthier; I'm about to take it to a different luthier in a couple of days and just thought I'd post to see if anyone had come across it!

Basically I get this bell like sound that rings out every time I hit the open high E string. The closest description to the sound I guess would be if I picked the short length of string between the nut and the tuners.

It get's really messy from here though:

If I cover all the bits of string between nut and tuners with my left hand and pick the open e - the problem still occurs
the temperature of the room seems to effect the severity of problem - on cold days it's really loud, on warm days it's a bit softer, and sometimes on warm days the problem is soft to the point you can't really hear it.
if I knock the string a little bit out of tune (either direction) - the problem goes away, it only seems to happen on that open-e pitch...
changing strings does not resolve the issue.
There was one occasion when the luthier could actually replicate the sound on the same e-note but on 5th fret of the B-string.... bizarre..
we've even changed the nut from bone to a new tusq nut - the problem went away for a week or so..... then it started happening again: the ring is a little softer now - but definitely there... confusing :S

Anyway there a number of other little things and also a bunch of things we have already tried to address the issue - it's starting to get a little bit frustrating lol

If anyone has any insight into this then that would be a great help! Thanks in advance for any help at all-

Thanks,

Johnny

random works · #2 10-20-2010, 08:27 PM

Though not exactly the same experience, I have experienced a 'wolf tone' before, which to me is an unwanted strength of sound or an extra sound produced by a guitar. In my case, it diminished with age and went away.

Mine was a kind of extra tone that would bloom out when certain notes were played in combination. It was not a buzz, rattle, high fret, poorly seated string on nut, poorly seated string ball end, it was musical and maybe would have been nice if I could have controlled it and used it.

that ringing sound though, does not really sound like the wolf tone I had; maybe it is a wolf tone though. Hope you work it out. Could you stand to play a half step tuned down?

poorbs · #3 10-20-2010, 09:20 PM

I've had a problem similar to this and it was resolved by changing the gauge of string used. Whatever size it is, 11, 12, or 13, try going up one or down one size just for that string and see if the problem goes away.

gmm55 · #4 10-20-2010, 09:37 PM

Call me string dyslexic if you want, but I can never figure out whether high E means the treble E, or the wound E, as it is in fact the highest E string on the guitar, physically speaking. I have the same peculiar problem with first and sixth string. Yes, thirty years of playing guitar and I have to confess I still cannot remember which is which.

In any event, kindly clarify if you mean the wound E or the plain E.

My intuition is that it could be sympathetic overtones of the speaking length of the other strings. You do say that you "cover all the bits of string between nut and tuners with my left hand" but you do not explicitly say if you also tried muting the open speaking lengths. Don't be tricked into thinking that just because the pitch is high or bell like, that it must come from a short section of string.

This kind of complaint is very common among newer violin players who are not aware of the phenomenon of sympathetic string vibration. It is often reported to me that the violin rings when they play the E, but getting them to simultaneously mute the other three strings causes the overtone(s) to disappear.

Try muting the speaking lengths of the five other strings at various enharmonic points, and report back on the effect.

ohnno · #5 10-20-2010, 10:11 PM

Thanks for the replies guys!

poorobs: that is something I haven't tried yet so I will give it a go! fingers crossed - thanks!

gmm55 - sorry for the confusion, I meant the treble E haha. In any case, I believe I have already tried that (but with the intent to just hear the treble e string clearly by itself). I will try it again when I get home but as I am at work I won't be able to for a few hours.

However I'm not quite sure what you mean by "at various enharmonic points" - can you please clarify a little on this? Thanks!

gmm55 · #6 10-20-2010, 10:21 PM

If you were using one finger to mute the open strings, you could place that finger anywhere, say right over the seventh fret, which would be a harmonic location, or say halfway between the fifth and sixth fret, which would be an enharmonic location. You can also use several fingers.

Another thing you did not specify is if the bell like ringing is occuring while the open E is active, or only after you mute it. What you can do is pluck the E hard, and quickly mute it, and see if the bell tone continues, with the strings free, and then muted. If the tone also occurs after you mute the E, this means that the overtone cannot be coming from the E itself, and that the mere action plucking the E is exciting the overtone elsewhere.

Having just done a little testing, I am very confident that you will manage to suppress your bell like tone by muting the open strings. The sympathetic vibrations of the open strings are very strong, and are made plain and obvious with the above experiment. However, your cause is one thing, but a solution is another. See if this I.D's your ring, and if so, then I would make some other remarks.

Huckleberry · #7 10-21-2010, 05:38 AM

I've got something similar on one of my guitars, but I only get it when fretting the top and bottom E at the third fret. I tracked it down to the low E buzzing between the fretted position and the nut (it goes away if I lightly touch or mute the string behind where I'm fretting). I'm almost certain that the low E is lightly contacting the first fret and buzzing against it when excited by certain other notes, so think I need a new nut, cut very slightly higher.

ChuckS · #8 10-21-2010, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohnno

Hi guys,

Been having a problem lately with my martin omc-28e that I can't seem to get rid of - and neither can my luthier; I'm about to take it to a different luthier in a couple of days and just thought I'd post to see if anyone had come across it!

Basically I get this bell like sound that rings out every time I hit the open high E string. The closest description to the sound I guess would be if I picked the short length of string between the nut and the tuners.

It get's really messy from here though:

If I cover all the bits of string between nut and tuners with my left hand and pick the open e - the problem still occurs
the temperature of the room seems to effect the severity of problem - on cold days it's really loud, on warm days it's a bit softer, and sometimes on warm days the problem is soft to the point you can't really hear it.
if I knock the string a little bit out of tune (either direction) - the problem goes away, it only seems to happen on that open-e pitch...
changing strings does not resolve the issue.
There was one occasion when the luthier could actually replicate the sound on the same e-note but on 5th fret of the B-string.... bizarre..
we've even changed the nut from bone to a new tusq nut - the problem went away for a week or so..... then it started happening again: the ring is a little softer now - but definitely there... confusing :S

Anyway there a number of other little things and also a bunch of things we have already tried to address the issue - it's starting to get a little bit frustrating lol

If anyone has any insight into this then that would be a great help! Thanks in advance for any help at all-

Thanks,

Johnny

I'd agree it may be sympathetic coupling from the treble to another string. The frequency of an open e is 3x that of the open A. See if muting the A string gets rid of it. If so, what's your saddle material (and saddle width), bridge pin material, and what strings are you using? From my experience, and experimenting, materials like FWI promote more of this coupling than bone. Also, wound phosphor bronze strings also seem to pick up more of sympathetic vibration than 80/20s.

sachi · #9 10-21-2010, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohnno

Basically I get this bell like sound that rings out every time I hit the open high E string. The closest description to the sound I guess would be if I picked the short length of string between the nut and the tuners.

Some people report that the strings do ring in that area. Try putting a piece of felt or leather under the strings between the nut and tuners.

DrBromiAndufEwd · #10 10-21-2010, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sachi

Some people report that the strings do ring in that area. Try putting a piece of felt or leather under the strings between the nut and tuners.

I think he already tried something similar by muting them with his hand to no avail....but hey...it couldnt hurt to try right? Plus then you can be cool like Antoine Dufour Cold Day. Thank hanky aint just fer looks! Thats one of my favorites by Antoine.

jmarmck · #11 10-21-2010, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrBromiAndufEwd

I think he already tried something similar by muting them with his hand to no avail....but hey...it couldnt hurt to try right? Plus then you can be cool like Antoine Dufour Cold Day. Thank hanky aint just fer looks! Thats one of my favorites by Antoine.

Second that.

ohnno · #12 10-21-2010, 04:52 PM

Thanks for all the suggestions guys,

the ringing was really soft last night so I couldn't really test anything.... I think cause the weather was quite warm last night (melbourne)..

really frustrating how the problem is temperamental, on-and-off. It's so strange how the weather affects it so.

Looking back now - I'm pretty sure covering any part of any of the strings does not resolve the issue - I do remember testing this a number of times while simply trying to isolate the e string and hear it by itself; that being said I'll definitely still try again once the ringing comes back (which it will XD)

to answer your question chucks - saddle material is tusq, bridge wood is ebony I believe - as i mentioned before I have changed my nut material from bone to tusq and it has made the ringing softer and less resonant (not sure what that's about) - and I use elixer strings.

Hopefully I'll have better luck tonight but I'm seeing the new luthier tomorrow so I can let him know what all of you think to help him out - I think hes certified to restore martin's to factory specs - I'm not 100% sure if the guitar came with the problem as I got it set-up very early on, but I don't think it did. So worst case scenario I'll just have him take everything back to original specs and with any luck itll solve the problem.

Thanks for all the comments guys I appreciate the help!

patticake · #13 10-22-2010, 03:37 AM

what happens if you take the other strings off the guitar or tape 'em together so they can't vibrate?

macfawlty · #14 10-22-2010, 01:28 PM

Saddle would be my guess. If it's not bone, replace it with such.

gmm55 · #15 10-22-2010, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohnno

the ringing was really soft last night so I couldn't really test anything.... I think cause the weather was quite warm last night (melbourne)..

Looking back now - I'm pretty sure covering any part of any of the strings does not resolve the issue - I do remember testing this a number of times while simply trying to isolate the e string and hear it by itself; that being said I'll definitely still try again once the ringing comes back (which it will XD)

Hmmm... the underlined has me wondering how carefully you are diagnosing the problem. Your original post says nothing about muting the speaking lengths, but only the short lengths, and you seem to be surmising now, based on a questionable recollection.

That the five other strings will ring with overtones (and thus contribute overtones) is beyond dispute. In fact, the sympathetic vibrations are so strong, I would now argue that you have a compound problem of eliminating them from the equation in your diagnosis procedure.

If or when you start re-diagnosing, as a matter of good experimental procedure, forget everything you think or know you tried in the past, and run through all possible configurations of muted and unmuted string combinations, coupled with constant and transient string activation.