Bolt-on or Dove-Tail?

BoomerSooner · #1 02-08-2010, 09:49 PM

OK still doing my homework before I decide. I want to say the bolt-on is an easier option but is it as simple as that. My buddy tells me go with the dove-tail, he is a woodcrafter by trade and I would have guessed his response and I did. Any thoughts? Also, I think I am leaning towards the stew-mac over the lmi or bluescreek. Yeah, neah? Thanks so much for any input. Scott

jackstrat · #2 02-09-2010, 06:00 AM

With some of the problems I have had with my latest guitar I will, in the future, see MT necks as a positive sales point. And the Taylor method seems the best. And I doubt that any more than .1 % of us could ever tell the difference between a dovetailed neck over a MT neck.

JackL

marioed · #3 02-09-2010, 06:18 AM

Hi Scott,
Between StewMac and LMI, the StewMac comes with more complete directions. With LMI you get a video that is helpful but you'll need to fill in a lot from other sources. This one is pretty helpful, http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/DaveKit/...emblySteps.htm . John at BluesCreek will walk you through your build and is very willing to answer your questions, he is also a great source for jigs, bending supplies and other items. Between a bolt on and dovetail, the bolt on is easier to do but both methods will require a certain amount of adjusting to get the neck angle and alignment correct. As to sound differences, this is one area that you can get a great deal of discussion on. At one time I would have said dovetail is better but now I don't think it makes that much difference. I've used bolt on necks for the 4 guitars I've built, all LMI kits. I 've gone with LMI because I like being able to customize my kits. I'd also recommend you pick up Bill Cory's book on building Martin style kits, http://www.nichebooks.com/kgm/mm-ebook.html, it is very helpful. Best of luck with your build.
Regards,
Ed

RustyAxe · #4 02-09-2010, 10:47 AM

Taylors are bolted. Martins are dovetailed. Guilds are dovetailed. Breedlove uses both, depending on the model. All sound great. I tend to favor bolt on, it's much easier down the road to adjust neck angle, and a reset involves a wrench and a shim instead of a injecting steam into the joint through the fretboard. It would seem a good choice for a first build, since there's a good chance of not getting the geometry right on the first try.

martinedwards · #5 02-10-2010, 07:29 AM

dovetails are a lot more complicated and need a lot more jigs & tools.

a bolt on M&T is a lot easier and more forgiving if you make a mistake.

its also a milloin times easier to reset down the line.

I was talking to George Lowden a while back and he said he does dovetails because he always has.... no better reason than that.

ironman187 · #6 02-10-2010, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RustyAxe

Taylors are bolted. Martins are dovetailed. Guilds are dovetailed. Breedlove uses both, depending on the model.

Wrong, Martin, Breedlove, and Guild all use M&T necks on many models. Taylor is exclusively bolt on, but they use CNC machines to get a tight tolerance fit, not something a small time builder cannot do. The M&T is a good thing in my opinion because it bridges the gap between a regular bolt on and Dovetail. The dovetail does not transfer vibration any better than the M&T neck joint, nor is it any stronger (although some elitists would say otherwise) so in your case, go with the M&T. It's easier to work with, will be more forgiving, and is cheaper to make than a dovetail. I would shy away from a true bolt on neck because it will not transfer vibration as well as a M&T joint (unless you have the capability to make it as precise as the Taylor bolt on)

TaylorKoaFan · #7 02-11-2010, 11:03 AM

There is some "nostalgia" associated with dovetail... and many people assume that because it is a more expensive way of doing work, that it must be better.

I am a pragmatist in many regards. Show me something that a dovetail can do that a bolt-on cannot. As has already been said, bolt-on's are much more convenient for neck re-set's.

RustyAxe · #8 02-11-2010, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ironman187

Wrong, Martin, Breedlove, and Guild all use M&T necks on many models.

Thanks for the amplification, but could you tell me precisely where my statement is wrong? Martin standards (and above) and Guild "Traditional" all are dovetailed. Anyway, I think you must have misunderstood the point of my post. I was pointing out the "majors" do it differently from each other, and none is "better" than the other. They all work.

Triumph1050 · #9 03-06-2011, 02:38 PM

I'm on staff at a boarding school and in a small guitar building class with a teacher and 2 students. It's the first year for the class and will probably grow next year. I'm almost done with my first build....a D-18 design dread from LMI. The plans that came with it were actually StewMacs. It has diagrams for a dovetail and a M&T.

I went with the M&T as I thought it'd be easier for my first one. The 3 others in the class, teacher included planned to do a dovetail. The teacher has built about 15 guitars, all with dovetails. I am ahead of the others slightly and the first to attach my neck. The teacher was so impressed with the M&T that he plans to use it on his build and so do the 2 students.

I used William Cumpiano's bolt and barrel method. It came out great.

Just my 2 cents...

tadol · #10 03-06-2011, 07:43 PM

For alot of builders, especially production or beginners, the bolt on neck offers alot of advantages. For professional builders, the dovetail joint offers some advantage (flexibility) in voicing, and lessens the mass of the instrument. Either technique can make an excellent guitar -

Kitchen Guitars · #11 03-07-2011, 04:38 AM

Reseting a Dovetail is brutal and cruel to the guitar. Resetting an MT a breeze.
Dovetail will take time and can make a mess of the finish. The MT takes 10 minutes.
All Collings Guitars are MT. They sound and play better than OK.
Someday I may do a Dovetail out of novelty. Maybe I will photo document the process with my 35mm camera with Kodacolor II film

dekutree64 · #12 03-07-2011, 08:48 AM

I do barrel bolt M&T currently. It's easy to make, easy to adjust, and I have trouble believing that a dovetail would be that much different acoustically... it's just using wood to pull the neck to the body, rather than bolts. But the main contact is still the outer rim of the heel.

My novelty to test out is the integral headblock, which is normally only done on nylon strings. That puts the main contact as the continuous run of wood in the center of the neck, with a large area glued directly long grain to long grain with the soundboard and back. That I can believe would make an acoustic difference... but the reset procedure is even more difficult and destructive than the dovetail.

Hopefully with the C shaped headblock style and CF reinforcements going all the way to the upper transverse brace, it will never need to be adjusted. And at least I only do French polish for now, so touching up the finish is not such a problem.

I also like that you can do curvy, edge-less cutaway heels by exposing the side of the headblock, like on my Cordoba

However, it may turn out that doing binding and finish sanding with the neck sticking off the box, and polishing around the cracks will be more work than it's worth anyway.

arie · #13 03-07-2011, 10:09 AM

imo, i'm not too fond of the air gap between the end of the dovetail and it's pocket in the neck block. i feel that some tone and stability could be lost here. now you could fit all sides of the joint for 100% contact with the neck block but it's bit of work with dovetail geometry. a mt joint offers the chance to get 100% contact with the mortise and the tenon for a gapless joint far easier.

tadol · #14 03-07-2011, 11:47 AM

True, but isolating the neck from the body could prevent string energy from being absorbed in the mass of the neck (and bolts) so that it remains concentrated in the top. Again, it's a choice - and one that ultimately contributes to the overall sound of the guitar - Not judging good/bad, just a decision point.

Corky Long · #15 03-09-2011, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitchen Guitars

Reseting a Dovetail is brutal and cruel to the guitar. Resetting an MT a breeze.
Dovetail will take time and can make a mess of the finish. The MT takes 10 minutes.
All Collings Guitars are MT. They sound and play better than OK.
Someday I may do a Dovetail out of novelty. Maybe I will photo document the process with my 35mm camera with Kodacolor II film

LOL - good point. The problem is that, if your dovetail process matches mine, you'll go through 4 rolls of film capturing the multiple shims that I successively glued and sanded back as I tried to achieve and acceptable fit.

Seriously, I think a dovetail is a really elegant joint; I just wish I could execute it without tearing my hair out, I built four guitars with the dovetail, and never really got comfortable with it. But the real kicker for me is when you need to tweak the neck angle a bit, an M&T bolt on is reaaaally forgiving, as you've said, frankly I've gotten used to putting it on and taking it off whiled doing final setup, which is really useful in tweaking neck angle, and flossing the neck.

M&T for me (yes, the Cumpiano barrel bolt approach)