The Acoustic Guitar Forum  

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > General Acoustic Guitar Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 02-28-2009, 05:55 PM
dwortman dwortman is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 223
Default What exactly is "Pre-War" bracing?

I've heard this term kicked around and around. I've heard it used to describe the guitar itself to some mfr's stating they use pre war scalloped bracing. I assume it results in a particular voice but TECHNICALLY what does it involve? Is it the material, the location, a specific pattern?
Thanks for clearing this up,
Dale
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-28-2009, 06:00 PM
Bluewyatt's Avatar
Bluewyatt Bluewyatt is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nashville
Posts: 1,119
Default

I'm of the belief that it's the location and that it's more forward (near the soundhole). I'm far from an expert and I'm sure someone will enlighten us both.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-28-2009, 06:14 PM
Brackett Instruments's Avatar
Brackett Instruments Brackett Instruments is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Grover NC
Posts: 6,076
Default

Here's a pretty good explatation of Martins bracing, both past and present.
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musi...clpbrace1.html
__________________
woody b politically incorrect since 1964
Brackett Instruments Handmade Acoustic Guitars.
Big companies build guitars for profit. We build them for musicians.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-28-2009, 06:14 PM
rmyAddison's Avatar
rmyAddison rmyAddison is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Addison, TX
Posts: 15,922
Default

A good short explanation.............google is the best.

Pre-war era Martins have a bracing pattern that many enthusiasts believe to be the best. In truth, Martin did two things differently. First, braces were scalloped in that era. That is, wood was selectively removed from certain areas of the braces to weaken the top enough to allow it to vibrate freely without weakening it so much as to make it structurally unsound. Scalloping opens up the mids and increases volume. Second, Martin used a forward shift of their X bracing. On most X-braced steel string guitars, the "X" crosses approximately 2" below the soundhole. On pre-war Martins, the "X" crosses about 1" below the soundhole. The result is that the bridge rests less directly atop the main X-braces and transfers more of its vibration to the top.

In the 1940s, Martin moved the X bracing away from the soundhole to its current position and quit scalloping braces. According to Martin, they did this due to the preponderance of players using heavy -gauge strings to boost their volume. The light bracing pattern coupled with heavy strings resulted in a high damage rate. Because pre-war Martins are becoming so rare and expensive, Martins along with many other builders are now producing guitars with scalloped and forward-shifted bracing.

Pre war bracing is also what Martin uses on its Marquis, Golden Era and Authentic models as well as select signature models and limited editions, i.e. it is very popular... my 3 go to Martins all have pre war bracing, so it appeals to my old ears.
__________________
Rich - rmyAddison
What would I be, if I did not try to make it better....
Rich Macklin Soundclick Website
http://www.youtube.com/rmyaddison

Some Martins..........
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-28-2009, 07:37 PM
surfoxy surfoxy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NOR*CAL
Posts: 5,557
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmyAddison View Post
A good short explanation.............google is the best.

Pre-war era Martins have a bracing pattern that many enthusiasts believe to be the best. In truth, Martin did two things differently. First, braces were scalloped in that era. That is, wood was selectively removed from certain areas of the braces to weaken the top enough to allow it to vibrate freely without weakening it so much as to make it structurally unsound. Scalloping opens up the mids and increases volume. Second, Martin used a forward shift of their X bracing. On most X-braced steel string guitars, the "X" crosses approximately 2" below the soundhole. On pre-war Martins, the "X" crosses about 1" below the soundhole. The result is that the bridge rests less directly atop the main X-braces and transfers more of its vibration to the top.

In the 1940s, Martin moved the X bracing away from the soundhole to its current position and quit scalloping braces. According to Martin, they did this due to the preponderance of players using heavy -gauge strings to boost their volume. The light bracing pattern coupled with heavy strings resulted in a high damage rate. Because pre-war Martins are becoming so rare and expensive, Martins along with many other builders are now producing guitars with scalloped and forward-shifted bracing.

Pre war bracing is also what Martin uses on its Marquis, Golden Era and Authentic models as well as select signature models and limited editions, i.e. it is very popular... my 3 go to Martins all have pre war bracing, so it appeals to my old ears.
Would it be more accurate to say that the forward-shifted (higher) x-brace was changed after 1937? I thought there were a couple of years in there with lower x-brace, scalloped, red spruce, bone, and Brazilian.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-28-2009, 08:48 PM
OddManOut's Avatar
OddManOut OddManOut is offline
G7-C9-Edim-B9-B7b13-E7-E9
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Carson City, Nv (Want a jackrabbit? We've got extras!)
Posts: 2,014
Default

I guess it's safe to say Martin has shifted it's position on bracing several times.
__________________
Martin 00-18G (1949), SJ Rescue, The OMOM, The Twins: The Homeboy (gifted to my Nephew), Curly; The Whistle Pig, MadRose/Carpathian 000-12 (2015), Taylor GS Mini Hog-Top

"Hiding from the madman I am longing to be."
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-28-2009, 09:49 PM
Twelvefret Twelvefret is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 3,740
Default

Quote:
Pre war bracing is also what Martin uses on its Marquis, Golden Era and Authentic models as well as select signature models and limited editions, i.e. it is very popular... my 3 go to Martins all have pre war bracing, so it appeals to my old ears.
This is not accurate information. The GE does not have the same braces as the Authentic or the pre war Martins

The Authentic has braces that are pre-war shape in width and height. The GE does not and are taller and more narrow.
The Authentic does not have a popsicle brace. The first GE had a Sitka top and no popsicle brace, but the modern GE has a popsicle brace.
The Authentic has "tucked" braces I think.

I also think that the bridge plate is the same size as the bridge in the Authentic, but in the GE the bridge is larger than the plate.

Most people are not aware that the actual shape of the Authentic is inconsistent with the pre war box. I used to have some photos that show this.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-01-2009, 04:35 AM
pakhan pakhan is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 539
Default

But the prewar and wartime configurations are necessarily always better than other styles... and they do vary from model to model.

For example, the popsicle brace has IIRC always been on the OOOs, but not on the dreads.

And for fingerstyle, non-popsicle, forward shifted dreads I feel are better whereas for a more balanced flatpicking, rear shifted, non-popsicle is my preference.

Terence
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-01-2009, 08:51 AM
rmyAddison's Avatar
rmyAddison rmyAddison is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Addison, TX
Posts: 15,922
Default

Charlie,

you are correct. I think the "generalization" is correct as that article I quoted suggested in that pre-war "implies" forward shifted and scalloped braces versus standard placement and non-scalloped braces, then the popsicle brace is another piece of the puzzle.

Martin calls the bracing on the 'V's

Standard ''X'' Scalloped, Forward Shifted

and on the Marquis and Golden Eras

Standard ''X'' Scalloped (Golden Era Style), Forward Shifted

and on the Authentics

Standard ''X'' Scalloped (Authentic Style), Forward Shifted

So yes pre-war bracing would be same size forward shifted scalloped braces, no popsicle brace and same size bridge plate (and other nuances), but again I think the generalization (forward shifted scalloped braces) is used a lot.

Be curious as to how "accurate" Bourgeois, Santa Cruz and others are with their pre-war models.

Thanks for the clarification, but I think the generalization has value too. I'd love to see those bracing pix if you can find them.
__________________
Rich - rmyAddison
What would I be, if I did not try to make it better....
Rich Macklin Soundclick Website
http://www.youtube.com/rmyaddison

Some Martins..........
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-01-2009, 10:18 AM
Thin Crust's Avatar
Thin Crust Thin Crust is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Little Rock, Arkansas
Posts: 3,773
Send a message via Yahoo to Thin Crust
Default

Paragon version on my MJC

__________________
John

Petros, Paragon, Charis, Bashkin, and Claxton
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-01-2009, 10:26 AM
fingerstyle2 fingerstyle2 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Washington, DC area
Posts: 325
Default

For more than you probably need to know about changes in Martin specs over the years: http://www.provide.net/~cfh/martin.html#specs

Scroll down a bit for the bracing section.

David
__________________
Visit http://fingerstyle2.weebly.com/ to listen to my music and learn about tab books of Wayne Henderson's music. Check out my YouTube page at www.youtube.com/profile?user=dziegele
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-01-2009, 11:20 AM
Twelvefret Twelvefret is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 3,740
Default

Quote:
Thanks for the clarification, but I think the generalization has value too. I'd love to see those bracing pix if you can find them.
I agree about generalizations and after thinking better, I was too harsh with my response. Please forgive, look over, ignore.

Willie Henke had those pictures showing the "tucked" braces. John Arnold might have them.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-01-2009, 11:40 AM
fingerstyle2 fingerstyle2 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Washington, DC area
Posts: 325
Default

Chuck,

This UMGF thread has some pics of tucked braces. Not sure if those are the ones you were looking for: http://theunofficialmartinguitarforu...4#reply-709004

And two related threads: http://theunofficialmartinguitarforu...om/topic/42085

http://theunofficialmartinguitarforu...om/topic/72976

David
__________________
Visit http://fingerstyle2.weebly.com/ to listen to my music and learn about tab books of Wayne Henderson's music. Check out my YouTube page at www.youtube.com/profile?user=dziegele
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-01-2009, 11:58 AM
BlackHeart BlackHeart is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 627
Default

My Tacoma DM-9 also has 'forward shifted' X brace, an inch from the soundhole, so I wonder if this is the standard 'dred' model now? I actually chose this guitar over a '65 Martin dred for sound,(beat to hell) but it aint no Martin...
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-01-2009, 12:39 PM
Twelvefret Twelvefret is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 3,740
Default

Quote:
This UMGF thread has some pics of tucked braces. Not sure if those are the ones you were looking for
Yes, that is the photo I was thinking of, David. That was very nice of you do look that up for everyone.

If you have access to that mammoth thread I started that went to 3000 plus posts circa May of '07, John A posted a photo of how the modern Martin box shape in more tapered at the top than the pre war Martins.

charlie
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > General Acoustic Guitar Discussion

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Loading

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=