Nitro vs. Poly finishes... need some truth :)

scotchtape · #1 08-07-2007, 08:07 PM

Sooo, I've been looking to build a strat (i know, the acoustic section!) BUT! I got sidetracked by the whole finishing thing, I've read that nitro finishes are better tonally because they allow the wood to breathe and age and all that, is there any truth to this at all?

Is there a point in finishing a guitar in nitro-cellulose, will it improve the tone over Poly or is there really no difference?

I'd just like to know because I'm going to get a strat body from warmoth and I want to figure out if I should just get them to finish it or try somehow to find someone to do a nitro finish for me...

Also, if I do try to do it myself, what are the steps in finishing on the wood... Strat body >> sealer? >> finish? I don't know anything about this at all.

Just as a point of interest, I'm trying to build an "natural" looking strat, clear finish, wood pickguard (if I go with a pickguard), cream/wood pickup covers, gold jacks and hardware, maybe gold frets

yay for wood!

Thanks guys.

wthurman · #2 08-07-2007, 08:30 PM

Quite frankly, on a solid-body electric, I don't think it's going to make that much difference outside of what's between your ears. (Not an insult... just saying that it's much more subtle, if an issue at all, since the sound comes from the pickups and not very much of how the wood vibrates outside of overall density, at least in my experience.)

ljguitar · #3 08-07-2007, 09:03 PM

Hi Mr Tape...
I don't think there's a lot of truth to it if both the Poly and Nitro are well applied and thin.

I own a 14 year old Olson with Nitro which is amazing. Two years ago I was in Jim's shop and played a 2 week old model with Poly. It was also amazing. I could detect no difference in sonic properties.

I have played quite a few of another luthier's models and was in his shop playing guitars last month and there were 4 models, and after we'd played for about an hour he revealed that one of them was Poly, and we couldn't tell which one without him pointing it out.

If I were commissioning a guitar today and had the option of finishes (and they were equally thin and well applied) I'd opt for Poly.

zombywoof · #4 08-07-2007, 09:51 PM

First, at least on electrics, the nitro finishes you find on most guitars today ain't even close to the stuff used in the past. Way back when, the body had to be sprayed, hung to dry and then resprayed over and over. The guitar was then set aside for weeks to air dry and harden before being polished.

Most of what you see called nitro today is a catalyzed finish - essentially plastic - the same urethane you can buy on the shelf at Home Depot. It dries in seconds.

brandywine · #5 08-07-2007, 10:13 PM

I do not believe that a nitro finish or a poly finish have any effect whatsoever on the sound or tone of an electric guitar. I have built three solid body electrics, and used nitro on two simply because I like the feel of it and the look of it. As for the sound, if the finish makes a difference, the pickups and the amp cannot be doing their jobs.

Taylorplayer · #6 08-07-2007, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zombywoof

First, at least on electrics, the nitro finishes you find on most guitars today ain't even close to the stuff used in the past. Way back when, the body had to be sprayed, hung to dry and then resprayed over and over. The guitar was then set aside for weeks to air dry and harden before being polished.

Most of what you see called nitro today is a catalyzed finish - essentially plastic - the same urethane you can buy on the shelf at Home Depot. It dries in seconds.

I didn't know that... is that true of what Martin calls Nitro also these days?

Taylorplayer · #7 08-07-2007, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zombywoof

First, at least on electrics, the nitro finishes you find on most guitars today ain't even close to the stuff used in the past. Way back when, the body had to be sprayed, hung to dry and then resprayed over and over. The guitar was then set aside for weeks to air dry and harden before being polished.

Most of what you see called nitro today is a catalyzed finish - essentially plastic - the same urethane you can buy on the shelf at Home Depot. It dries in seconds.

I didn't know that... is that true of what Martin calls Nitro also these days?

selectortone · #8 08-08-2007, 03:38 AM

Nitro is better than poly - it must be true, I read it on the internet

.

Herb Hunter · #9 08-08-2007, 05:39 AM

Someone would have a very hard time convincing me that a nitro finish allows the wood to breathe.

tholmes · #10 08-08-2007, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herb Hunter

Someone would have a very hard time convincing me that a nitro finish allows the wood to breathe.

Me too, isnce it's been dead for quite some time before being made into a guitar.

Considering the signal path that is involved in the tone of an electric guitar, I seriously doubt that anyone could hear the difference between poly and nitrocellulose lacquer provided that both were suitably thin.

Tom

ljguitar · #11 08-08-2007, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herb Hunter

Someone would have a very hard time convincing me that a nitro finish allows the wood to breathe.

Hi Herb...
On a solid body you may be correct. On most acoustic guitars the inside of the body is not finished, so it can ''breathe'' all it needs to.

I'm not sure how porous the different finishes are - perhaps a luthier will wade in here and let us know. I know Nitro continues to shrink and harden for ages after it's applied.

Ujitsuna · #12 08-08-2007, 06:52 AM

There is supposed to be some difference but really it must be so minor it isn't even worth it. The only reason you'd want a nitro finish on an electric is if you're replicating pre-CBS Fenders or something - like the Eric Johnson strat model.

Tim McKnight · #13 08-08-2007, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zombywoof

First, at least on electrics, the nitro finishes you find on most guitars today ain't even close to the stuff used in the past. Way back when, the body had to be sprayed, hung to dry and then resprayed over and over. The guitar was then set aside for weeks to air dry and harden before being polished.

Most of what you see called nitro today is a catalyzed finish - essentially plastic - the same urethane you can buy on the shelf at Home Depot. It dries in seconds.

Just to set the record straight - Nitro and Catalyzed Urethane are NOT the same finishes, not even close. Nitro Cellulose Lacquer is softer, cures over time by solvents evaporating from ther solids which leaves a film of finish behind. Yes, there are plasticizeres in each of these finsihes to allow the finsih to expand and contract while the wood moves during moisture exchanges with the atmosphere.

Catalyzed Urethane hardens by chemical reaction and not by evaporation. The finsih is MUCH harder than nitro and it has plasticizers added to it too.

Both of these products are NOT the same formulations that you can purchase off the shelf at your local home improvement store. I pay $120.00 per gallon for the finsih that I use. I would love to run over to Lowes and pick up a gallon of Deft for 20 bucks but I am sure my customers would not appreciate the results.

zombywoof · #14 08-08-2007, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herb Hunter

Someone would have a very hard time convincing me that a nitro finish allows the wood to breathe.

Sure does - cuz it wears off quicker.

Herb Hunter · #15 08-08-2007, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Herb...
On a solid body you may be correct. On most acoustic guitars the inside of the body is not finished, so it can ''breathe'' all it needs to.

I'm not sure how porous the different finishes are - perhaps a luthier will wade in here and let us know. I know Nitro continues to shrink and harden for ages after it's applied.

Hi Larry,
I was addressing the porosity. I didn't think either finish is porous as I think they are intended as sealants. Like you, I'm hoping a luthier will respond.

Also, I don't think the wood needs to breathe.