The Impact of our Culture on Women in Music

[Denny B]

Originally Posted by jljohn

Please do! And, please let us know what you learn.

I'll do that..

[Denny B]

Originally Posted by sweets pal

I am not resigned to the status quo, I stand up for myself and other women, always have.

I am not one of the "flaming hair" feminists, only concerned with themselves and their perfect place in society.

A more relaxed attitude toward the issue makes me happy. I have many male friends so I know they appreciate who I am and how I think. I stay away from those whose attitudes I don't like and it works perfectly.

Jan

Jan, you sound a lot like my wife, and I'm thinking that the female musicians I know and can ask about this topic are pretty much on the same page...

Best comment by far on the subject...

[architype]

The other side of this coin is women using their physical attributes to gain exposure in the music business.

There is a young woman named Jess Greenberg on You Tube that plays guitar and sings. She does acoustic covers of just about every popular song you can think of and does a great job. She plays well and has a good voice. She is also very attractive and has impressive physical attributes on full display. It is working for her because she has thousands of views on all of her videos.

The thing is she is talented and doesn't need to rely on her physical beauty. It is pretty clear that this is her marketing plan since she is quite exposed on every video. I get it...singers and guitar players are a dime a dozen, so if you have the looks, use them for all they are worth. She gets a lot of sleazy comments and a lot of positive comments too. To her credit, she seems to let the sleazy comments slide on by.

When a woman dresses that way obviously seeking attention, outrage at the negative attention will lose some of it's credibility.

Dave Chappelle has a great skit about that. He says, "Ladies if you dress like a prostitute and get offended when men treat you like a prostitute, you have to accept some responsibility. If I walk around dressed like a policeman and you come running to me to help you when you are being mugged, and I say, "Just because I'm dressed like a cop doesn't mean I'm a cop"... that's a little confusing, isn't it?"

[fatt-dad]

I agree with the OP, but want to add the following:

If the man or woman has limited talent and the only market appeal is the branding/packaging then we get what we expect - discussions beyond the music.

Then again, it's a bit presumptuous to think folks today have much basis for music critique.

Adele, Alison Krouss (sp), Sierra Hull, etc. are all known for their chops, songwriting, etc.

f-d

[Silurian]

Originally Posted by architype

Dave Chappelle has a great skit about that. He says, "Ladies if you dress like a prostitute and get offended when men treat you like a prostitute, you have to accept some responsibility. If I walk around dressed like a policeman and you come running to me to help you when you are being mugged, and I say, "Just because I'm dressed like a cop doesn't mean I'm a cop"... that's a little confusing, isn't it?"

What a rapier wit. It must have taken him months to craft that comedic confection.

[Dirk Hofman]

Originally Posted by architype

The other side of this coin is women using their physical attributes to gain exposure in the music business.
...

I think again one could suggest that this isn't exclusive to women. Appearance matters in terms of appeal and marketing. Probably more so for women, but it men do the same in their own way.

But that's all quite different than telling a bluegrass player of some considerable chops to smile when one would never suggest the same to a man. One need not examine the totality of how women live within the social dynamic to address such a small thing, in my view.

[amyFB]

Originally Posted by architype

The other side of this coin is women using their physical attributes to gain exposure in the music business.

There is a young woman named Jess Greenberg on You Tube that plays guitar and sings. She does acoustic covers of just about every popular song you can think of and does a great job. She plays well and has a good voice. She is also very attractive and has impressive physical attributes on full display. It is working for her because she has thousands of views on all of her videos.

The thing is she is talented and doesn't need to rely on her physical beauty. It is pretty clear that this is her marketing plan since she is quite exposed on every video. I get it...singers and guitar players are a dime a dozen, so if you have the looks, use them for all they are worth. She gets a lot of sleazy comments and a lot of positive comments too. To her credit, she seems to let the sleazy comments slide on by.

When a woman dresses that way obviously seeking attention, outrage at the negative attention will lose some of it's credibility.

Dave Chappelle has a great skit about that. He says, "Ladies if you dress like a prostitute and get offended when men treat you like a prostitute, you have to accept some responsibility. If I walk around dressed like a policeman and you come running to me to help you when you are being mugged, and I say, "Just because I'm dressed like a cop doesn't mean I'm a cop"... that's a little confusing, isn't it?"

I'm reading this with mixed feelings about the intent of the message.

The "obviously seeking attention" clause is the bit that's twisting my innards.

I'd be interested in results of a blind listening test of her music mixed in with other female vocalists, just to see how much of a bias that outfit she wears has on the listener's opinion.

[ThermiteTermite]

Funny thing, I watched one of the Jess Greenberg videos a while back, and she seemed pretty good to me. The outfit however I didn't care too much about.

I think she is a pretty good musician, but whenever someone now posts a Jess Greenberg video in, for instance, my facebook feed, I now automatically hide it without listening to it or watching it because of the outfits she wears. It annoys me for some reason.

[fingerguy]

I have a few things to say and will leave it at that. First about Jess Greenberg, her playing and singing is okay at best, but then if you look at those with record deals you clearly don't need to have much talent in many genres. Also do you believe for a second her thousands of views is to hear her sing and play? Yeah right!

Now, a woman emphasizes sex or whatever no one is putting a gun to her head. The fact is sex sells! Get all up in arms about it, scream feminism, and so on but the facts are the facts. Look at adds and commercials, do you notice a lot of the time on the cover or the beginning of the commercial there is a very sexy woman? That is because they want you stop what you are doing for a few seconds and go "Who and what is that?" It works, I personally know this.

Also, anyone and I mean anyone complaining about anything and getting paid to be a musician for a living needs to be quiet!!! Why? Like Ozzy Osbourne said, it's a privilege to do what you do. So if someone tells you to dress sexy or not, whether people come to hear you sing or not, if you are getting paid and not swinging a hammer, or saving a life or anything other than entertaining then be quiet and enjoy it or get a real job that is actually beneficial to society. Please don't preach to me about how they make people feel better and blah blah blah. Music can be replaced by sports, alcohol, and so on. Lets be honest here people.

Music is something we love, enjoy, whatever. I see it just like sports (football for example). If football seized to exist from 2018 and forward would people be upset and all up in arms? You betcha! BUT...will life move forward and they will eventually get past it? Of course!

We love music here...I am sure that is a safe assumption. Now if you are lucky enough to make money off of it, do what you have to do to continue to get those green pieces of paper coming!

[jljohn]

Originally Posted by fingerguy

I have a few things to say and will leave it at that. First about Jess Greenberg, her playing and singing is okay at best, but then if you look at those with record deals you clearly don't need to have much talent in many genres. Also do you believe for a second her thousands of views is to hear her sing and play? Yeah right!

Now, a woman emphasizes sex or whatever no one is putting a gun to her head. The fact is sex sells! Get all up in arms about it, scream feminism, and so on but the facts are the facts. Look at adds and commercials, do you notice a lot of the time on the cover or the beginning of the commercial there is a very sexy woman? That is because they want you stop what you are doing for a few seconds and go "Who and what is that?" It works, I personally know this.

Also, anyone and I mean anyone complaining about anything and getting paid to be a musician for a living needs to be quiet!!! Why? Like Ozzy Osbourne said, it's a privilege to do what you do. So if someone tells you to dress sexy or not, whether people come to hear you sing or not, if you are getting paid and not swinging a hammer, or saving a life or anything other than entertaining then be quiet and enjoy it or get a real job that is actually beneficial to society. Please don't preach to me about how they make people feel better and blah blah blah. Music can be replaced by sports, alcohol, and so on. Lets be honest here people.

Music is something we love, enjoy, whatever. I see it just like sports (football for example). If football seized to exist from 2018 and forward would people be upset and all up in arms? You betcha! BUT...will life move forward and they will eventually get past it? Of course!

We love music here...I am sure that is a safe assumption. Now if you are lucky enough to make money off of it, do what you have to do to continue to get those green pieces of paper coming!

Conversations about topics like this have a tendency to get heated, but, remarkably, this thread has stayed very calm. Please, let's try to keep it that way.

Now, as to content, I disagree strongly with you on the subject of music, "real jobs," and work that benefits society. I don't think any society has ever existed without art. Where there are people, there tends to be water, food, clothing shelter, and art. But this is all a digression.

It sounds top me a bit like you are saying, if you get the privilege of not having to do actual work for a living, then you'd better just put up with whatever demeaning treatment others throw at you. I have many top level issues with this line of thought, but at the bottom level, it just doesn't work as an argument, because there is no safe-have in what you might call "real work" for women who don't like how they are treated in the performing art to flee to. This problem is rampant, and I believe your approach to it is dismissive, at best.

[RP]

Originally Posted by HodgdonExtreme

I think it rolls both ways.

Men are certainly also subject to women's expectations and desires, and can absolutely be made to feel uncomfortable on account of same.

I really don't think there's any comparison, and IMO women have had much greater expectations regarding beauty, sexuality and the like...

[architype]

Originally Posted by amyFB

I'm reading this with mixed feelings about the intent of the message.

The "obviously seeking attention" clause is the bit that's twisting my innards.

I'd be interested in results of a blind listening test of her music mixed in with other female vocalists, just to see how much of a bias that outfit she wears has on the listener's opinion.

In reference to Jess Greenberg, I don't know how anyone could interpret it any other way. She could easily wear less revealing clothing, but she never does....and let's face it she has more than ample assets to display
There are more talented singers and players on You Tube, but I would rate her as well above average for an amateur musician. I looked at several comments and some came out and said, "I came for the ---- and stayed for the music."

[Dirk Hofman]

Originally Posted by jljohn

I have many top level issues with this line of thought, but at the bottom level, it just doesn't work as an argument, because there is no safe-have in what you might call "real work" for women who don't like how they are treated in the performing art to flee to. This problem is rampant, and I believe your approach to it is dismissive, at best.

For me this is the key. The original scenario in the thread is brought within the context of music, but the problem isn't contained to the arts.

Men tell women to smilie in all lines of work, even just walking down the street. I do find it odd and not a little condescending.

I don't know what the original scenario has to do with an YouTube personality getting a lot of views because she dresses scantily. Yep, she does it with intent and it's going to boost her viewership. I'll be the first one to say I prefer looking at attractive people. Yep, she's going to get a lot of attention, both good and bad. Yep, she's calling attention to her looks.

But the original post is just a talented young woman ripping on the guitar. A viewer brought appearance INTO that experience. The player did not. Completely different scenario.

I think this is the YouTube video in question.

[HodgdonExtreme]

Originally Posted by RP

I really don't think there's any comparison, and IMO women have had much greater expectations regarding beauty, sexuality and the like...

I really think there is a great comparison. While I agree with your assessment that "generally speaking" women endure more flak on account of looks, beauty and sexuality - men are subject to lots of flak from women on account of other things. To suggest otherwise is disingenuous.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by fingerguy

I have a few things to say and will leave it at that. First about Jess Greenberg, her playing and singing is okay at best, but then if you look at those with record deals you clearly don't need to have much talent in many genres. Also do you believe for a second her thousands of views is to hear her sing and play? Yeah right!

Now, a woman emphasizes sex or whatever no one is putting a gun to her head. The fact is sex sells! Get all up in arms about it, scream feminism, and so on but the facts are the facts. Look at adds and commercials, do you notice a lot of the time on the cover or the beginning of the commercial there is a very sexy woman? That is because they want you stop what you are doing for a few seconds and go "Who and what is that?" It works, I personally know this.

Also, anyone and I mean anyone complaining about anything and getting paid to be a musician for a living needs to be quiet!!! Why? Like Ozzy Osbourne said, it's a privilege to do what you do. So if someone tells you to dress sexy or not, whether people come to hear you sing or not, if you are getting paid and not swinging a hammer, or saving a life or anything other than entertaining then be quiet and enjoy it or get a real job that is actually beneficial to society. Please don't preach to me about how they make people feel better and blah blah blah. Music can be replaced by sports, alcohol, and so on. Lets be honest here people.

Music is something we love, enjoy, whatever. I see it just like sports (football for example). If football seized to exist from 2018 and forward would people be upset and all up in arms? You betcha! BUT...will life move forward and they will eventually get past it? Of course!

We love music here...I am sure that is a safe assumption. Now if you are lucky enough to make money off of it, do what you have to do to continue to get those green pieces of paper coming!

Whoa could hardly disagree more on a number of fundamental levels

But this is probably the bell ringer

"Also, anyone and I mean anyone complaining about anything and getting paid to be a musician for a living needs to be quiet!!!"


Might want to consider that virtually the same reasoning and not to dissimilar verbiage with small adjustments here and there, has been used throughout history whenever anyone has asserted or spoken about any kind of inequality . For example in speaking about things like oh say ?????

Slavery.... "You have a shack over your head and gruel for your belly.. Shut up and work.... You should be thankful you don't have to work in chains ...."

Women's Rights ...."I give you a house and clothes and food you should be thankful, so shut up and do what I say .... You don't need to vote you have me to decide what is best for you."

Labor .... "You don't like working 60 hours a week for minimum wage, You should be thankful you have a job at all .. And don't ever let me hear you say Union"

"Children should be seen and not heard "


bla bla bla ... bing bang boom .......Different instrument same ol' tune