The Impact of our Culture on Women in Music

[jljohn]

There was recently a rather contentious thread on another guitar forum that raised some issues about how women are treated in our musical communities, and thread was shut down for getting off-topic and out of hand (it started with a video of a young woman playing an old Martin guitar and degenerated from there.) But, it raised some important issues that I would like to probe in what, I hope, is a reasonable manner.

As a personal preface: I come from rural America (very conservative territory), but I now live in in a large northeastern city. I go to bluegrass, old time, and folk festivals, gigs, and jams regularly; I have friends that play for fun and professionally; I have kids that play; and I interact regularly with young musicians working their way up.

In this context, I've been watching and listening, and I can't count the number of times I've witnessed female musicians being told to smile, how they should dress, or what they should and shouldn't say behind a microphone. In addition to comments made to these musicians, I witnessed countless comments about the attractiveness of these women. I have yet to see a comparable comment to, or about, a man. And I am hearing from young female musicians that they feel the inappropriateness of it all. I actually had a woman yesterday use the word "icky" to describe the feeling of one regional bluegrass festival, and she wasn't describing the mud. They feel the weight of a culture that operates as if any man has the right to tell a woman how to look or act. I wish I could say that I was 'enlightened' enough to see the problem all on my own, but it has taken the prompting of women around me for me to see. And now I see it...everywhere!

We, in this community, have a culture that assesses female musicians first, and foremost, on their appearance, attractiveness, and demeanor followed by their musicianship, and it needs to change. If you don't see it--if you don't understand this issue--please ask a young woman in your life for some clarity. We can grow as a community only if we are willing to challenge our norms and listen to each other's concerns with sincerity.

With this in mind, I'd love for this be a thoughtful thread. I'd imagine that, if the moderators allow this thread to operate, it will be given a short leash. If there are any women here, I'd love to hear from you. I know there is a lot of goodness and welcoming that happens in this musical community, but how have comments like I mention above impacted you or made you feel? Can we work together to change these norms within our community? Do you see this issues happening around you, or do you simply think it's not a problem? Let's have productive conversation, please!

[L20A]

Right or wrong, when a few men get together they often talk about the opposite sex.
As far as how women are treated in public settings, There are some men that do go very overboard on the way that they treat women.
Fortunately not a lot of us are that way but enough are to make it uncomfortable for women at times.

This is not limited to the music industry as you have seen lately with the news coverage of actresses and a certain man in the industry.

I know several women including my wife that struggle to attend large events for fear of men cat calling or making unwanted advances.

This isn't the way it should be but it is a reality.
Some men like to dominate women.

[The Bard Rocks]

I have not witnessed these things. Maybe if I were a woman, I might be more sensitive and pick up on it. But I agree these things, if and when they happen, are not in the best interests of our society, women or men.

I might make an exception on the visual compliments - I know my wife might like to hear more of them. I don't see how complimenting someone's appearance would be viewed as derogatory, assuming the compliments were sincerely made. No one does that to me, so I don't have first-hand experience. (If you saw me, you'd understand.)

There is a centuries-long history of setting women up on a pole to be admired, which though I don't do much of that, is sorta OK by me. Concurrent with this tradition is the put-down aspect, the expectation (and worse) that women can't do as much or as well, or that they should be paid less. That isn't OK by me, but I do understand that traditions die slowly. We have made huge progress during my life and that progress will continue until these traditions become of historical interest only - or so I hope.

[PearlJamNoCode]

This is not unique to music, this happens way to often, and men need to change without patting themselves on the back for being the "good guy". Just be civil and treat women appropriately, like the human beings they are.

[Lauren710]

Originally Posted by PearlJamNoCode

This is not unique to music, this happens way to often, and men need to change without patting themselves on the back for being the "good guy". Just be civil and treat women appropriately, like the human beings they are.

This this this. If you're either confused about how to do that (no, comments on appearance aren't generally appropriate, even if you think it's a compliment!) or if you aren't confused and just want a good chuckle, this article that I read a few weeks ago was fun.

[Lauren710]

Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks

I have not witnessed these things. Maybe if I were a woman, I might be more sensitive and pick up on it. But I agree these things, if and when they happen, are not in the best interests of our society, women or men.

I might make an exception on the visual compliments - I know my wife might like to hear more of them. I don't see how complimenting someone's appearance would be viewed as derogatory, assuming the compliments were sincerely made. No one does that to me, so I don't have first-hand experience. (If you saw me, you'd understand.)

There is a centuries-long history of setting women up on a pole to be admired, which though I don't do much of that, is sorta OK by me. Concurrent with this tradition is the put-down aspect, the expectation (and worse) that women can't do as much or as well, or that they should be paid less. That isn't OK by me, but I do understand that traditions die slowly. We have made huge progress during my life and that progress will continue until these traditions become of historical interest only - or so I hope.

Yup. If it's not actively happening to you, it can be hard to spot it! Glad you agree that it's not good for anyone when it happens

[HodgdonExtreme]

I think it rolls both ways.

Men are certainly also subject to women's expectations and desires, and can absolutely be made to feel uncomfortable on account of same.

[jljohn]

Originally Posted by PearlJamNoCode

This is not unique to music, this happens way to often, and men need to change without patting themselves on the back for being the "good guy". Just be civil and treat women appropriately, like the human beings they are.

Indeed--true on both counts. But as this is an acoustic guitar forum I think it's appropriate to limit the conversation to how this plays out in circles and contexts where acoustic music is being made. And there is no back-patting happening here.

You are absolutely right that this begins with just being civil and treating women like the human being that they are, but it goes deeper. All my life, I've watched men say things to women like, "You really should smile more," often attached to a sentiment like, "you'd be so pretty." For many men, this is not perceived as anything uncivil or inappropriate. In fact, it's often intended kindly, but I think it's a good example of a way in which we need to reassess our underlying assumptions and practices. Ignoring for the moment the complexities of spousal or parental role, does any given man have the rightful position to tell any given woman that she should...[do or be anything?]

[PearlJamNoCode]

Originally Posted by jljohn

Indeed--true on both counts. But as this is an acoustic guitar forum I think it's appropriate to limit the conversation to how this plays out in circles and contexts where acoustic music is being made. And there is no back-patting happening here.

You are absolutely right that this begins with just being civil and treating women like the human being that they are, but it goes deeper. All my life, I've watched men say things to women like, "You really should smile more," often attached to a sentiment like, "you'd be so pretty." For many men, this is not perceived as anything uncivil or inappropriate. In fact, it's often intended kindly, but I think it's a good example of a way in which we need to reassess our underlying assumptions and practices. Ignoring for the moment the complexities of spousal or parental role, does any given man have the rightful position to tell any given woman that she should...[do or be anything?]

Agreed on all counts. I think we (men) need to set aside hurt feelings because our intention was kind. We need to re-learn (or learn for the first time!) that we are not to be judging others, especially women, ESPECIALLY on their appearance or what we think they should or should not do.

As it comes to guitar playing and music, enjoy the music, love the songs, appreciate the talent and hard work, but do not hero worship or the opposite, criticize or comment on appearance.

As this forum and many others have proven, there are countless topics in the music realm that can be a source of conversation. There is no need to comment on appearance.

[tippy5]

Now that I am 62 I hear it a lot. Especially if someone is attractive. I heard it last night on The Voice. Miley Cryus called a 17 year old male hot. Presumably because of the science of beauty.
Was it that he has high cheek bones and pleasing eye to mouth geometries and was physically in good shape?
The other 10 guys were not mentioned for that spark. Oh well.

I have been in a lot of bands and I my favorite were the female front women variety. I saw a little of this there but not as much as the OP stated.

Far be it from me to turn down the hormone verbalizations of us fellow humans. It is getting to be no matter what you say or how you look at someone that feelings are being hurt. I apologize for all the things I just said, or neglected to say.

[cotten]

No one should be treated as an object, but rather as a unique, valuable person worthy of respect.

That said, the problem being described here is as old as time itself. This doesn't make it any less real, or any less pervasive. It's just not new.

What is new about it is the rise of Victimhood in our society.

cotten

[Swamp Yankee]

Originally Posted by jljohn

We have a culture that assesses females first, and foremost, on their appearance, attractiveness, and demeanor.

FTFY ^

Seriously - this, IMO, extends well beyond music and pervades almost every aspect of our culture.

[Jambi]

100% agree with earlier statements... this extends far past music. I work in the IT field and find that women frequently judged by appearance instead of merit. Nowdays it's even worse with the advent of individuals who scream 'SJW' if you try to educate or make people empathize with others.

IT'S SO SIMPLE... JUDGE EACH PERSON ON A CASE BY CASE BASIS, NOT BY RACE/GENDER/RELIGION/SEXUAL ORIENTATION ETC...

Why hasn't society moved past this yet?!?

[Silly Moustache]

I am nearly 70, and fear , (and perhaps hope) that it is my generation that offends most, because ideas of feminism and respect for women as people was not the norm when we were teenagers.

If this is so, then fear not for we will be dead soon, or more seriously as we age perhaps we won't get drunk and silly so much.

I'd also put the blame on the "business" to an extent - and I'm thinking of the sexualisation of women in modern pop music - seems to me that young singing stars daren't go on stage adequately dressed nowadays.

As an aside, I feel that it is a responsibility of all of us performers at any level, and of any gender to dress neatly and tidily for the stage - I'm not talking about glitter or nudie suits, but not dirty torn T-shirts, sweaters, and I hate seeing men wearing shorts on stage - dunno why.

In fact if one thinks back - the way that singers and musicians present themselves has defined many musical ages - from hippie to glamrock etc.

But we are talking mainly about outdated disrespect for women by men, and whilst men are genetically predisposed to look at women and judge them on appearance, times have changed and what seemed "normal" in the '50s to '70s is no longer acceptable, and women have made us change .... and I thank them for it.

I'm thinking now of more modern female musicians that I admire and for what reasons.

Gillian Welch, Sierra Hull, Molly Tuttle, Sarah Jarosz and Pharis Romero are a few of many examples who don't need to over play their looks in order to impress.

But in the times when, say Dolly Parton found it necessary to create her "look" in order to get her musical talent recognised are , I hope gone.......I don't know for sure ...ask Mylie Cyrus. i

[PearlJamNoCode]

Originally Posted by cotten

No one should be treated as an object, but rather as a unique, valuable person worthy of respect.

That said, the problem being described here is as old as time itself. This doesn't make it any less real, or any less pervasive. It's just not new.

What is new about it is the rise of Victimhood in our society.

cotten

I would argue that there is no rise in "victimhood" in our society, but rather more avenues to share and listeners to people's experiences. More women than men are attending and graduating college and getting advanced degrees. More people of color are rising in society and having their voices heard. "Victimhood" is not on the rise, listening to stories of victimization is.