The Impact of our Culture on Women in Music

[Swamp Yankee]

Originally Posted by PearlJamNoCode

I would argue that there is no rise in "victimhood" in our society, but rather more avenues to share and listeners to people's experiences. More women than men are attending and graduating college and getting advanced degrees. More people of color are rising in society and having their voices heard. "Victimhood" is not on the rise, listening to stories of victimization is.

Agreed - it's like a proportionate rise in the diagnosis of diseases that had been misdiagnosed in the past. There's not a proportionate rise in the numbers of people that are getting the disease - we're just getting better at recognizing the disease.

Also - in this case, the sufferers are getting less afraid of telling others that they're sick and tired of them accepting the disease as status quo.

[Basalt Beach]

Originally Posted by PearlJamNoCode

This is not unique to music, this happens way to often, and men need to change without patting themselves on the back for being the "good guy". Just be civil and treat women appropriately, like the human beings they are.

+1 spot on

Originally Posted by Lauren710

This this this. If you're either confused about how to do that (no, comments on appearance aren't generally appropriate, even if you think it's a compliment!) or if you aren't confused and just want a good chuckle, this article that I read a few weeks ago was fun.

Visualizing "The Rock", just might work for some! For myself, I was raised in a family where both of my Grandmothers lead the family and I was also the only male among four siblings. I observed my Grandmother, who was widowed when my Mom was 11, and my other Grandmother who raised my Dad and his siblings while my Grandfather was out to sea for months at a time. My parents, Aunts, Uncles, and sisters also lead by example.

I worked in a male dominated industry and I had two women and twenty or so men who I worked with closely, traveled with and collaborated with nearly every day for 20 plus years. One day, early on at work, one of the women just turned to me and said "thank you", and I responded with "your welcome" however she could see I had a perplexed look. She explained she was appreciative to find someone who treated her as an equal. Over time she shared the numerous instances of the behaviors of colleagues and customers which simply shocked me. Had she not shared with me for what to look for in business meetings or social gatherings, I probably would not recognize it.

Originally Posted by PearlJamNoCode

I would argue that there is no rise in "victimhood" in our society, but rather more avenues to share and listeners to people's experiences. More women than men are attending and graduating college and getting advanced degrees. More people of color are rising in society and having their voices heard. "Victimhood" is not on the rise, listening to stories of victimization is.

Agreed... And while some want to point to how woman today dress & perform on stage. Perhaps there is a double standard as men have been removing their shirts or appearing bare chested in concerts for decades.

As for some of the women who influenced my early love of music, Ella Fitzgerald, Mary Travers, Petula Clark, Carole King, Joni Mitchell, Etta James.

[HodgdonExtreme]

Originally Posted by tippy5

Now that I am 62 I hear it a lot. Especially if someone is attractive. I heard it last night on The Voice. Miley Cryus called a 17 year old male hot. Presumably because of the science of beauty. Was it that he has high cheek bones and pleasing eye to mouth geometries and was physically was in good shape?
The other 10 guys were not mentioned for that spark. Oh well.

I have been in a lot of bands and I my favorite were the female front women variety. I saw a little of this there but not as much as the OP stated.

Far be it from me to turn down the hormone verbalizations of us fellow humans. It is getting to be no matter what you say or how you look at someone that feelings are being hurt. I apologize for all the things I just said, or neglected to say.

+1

and the needed extra verbiage to get my message to 10+ characters...

[StevenL]

"We, in this community...?"

Sorry, I see very little of that here. Most of the people here seem to go out of their way to treat a female member with respect, if the lady (is that an offensive term these days?) is even identifiable by forum name. I know this has been a characteristic of the human race since ancient times, but I don't accept the generalized guilt being assigned to and demanded from all male-kind in recent days.

This is not a 'problem' in this place that requires a generalized acknowledgement of guilt by all male members. Out There, the nature of the creatures will continue until a change of Nature, I have little doubt, and in my experience, it works Both Ways. In Here, the objectifying of female members is very well kept in check. If this is not the case, I'd love to see some examples of this violation posted here so that the Guilty ones can see and learn. I may be wrong.

But...this is my opinion, observation, perception. I can't help what someone else perceives.

[Rosewood99]

Interesting thread but probably needs to be moved to a more appropriate section of the forum.

[J Patrick]

....it is a transitional time in the history of our pop culture and the entire world in general...though everything is always changing and will continue to do so in the future i feel that we are witnessing the kind of change that is essential to the growth of our humanity...and whenever new norms are to be established old ones must pass on...

....women or anyone else who has had to overcome long standing prejudices and indignities can now look with hope to the future instead of enduring the status quo....though the task of ensuring the lofty ideal of true equality may always persist

....music above all has the power to bring people together...lets all use it to that end...

[H165]

"I've never heard of Allison Krauss but the fact you used her style of dress to prove your point legitimizes this thread."

Wouldn't want to have an illegitimate thread. Glad I legitimized it for you.

[Jambi]

Originally Posted by H165

Same goes for men in the entertainment business being told all these same things. The marketing arm and attitude of this business and avocation has lots of power. When you are using a microphone, whether you are on the big stage, or at an open mic, or a local paying gig, or playing free at someone's party you ARE, above all, entertaining.

When I started watching and listening to Allison Krauss, she was the same incredibly talented and accomplished player and performer she is now. Look back at her early performances. Pretty much all the same shapeless dress and unremarkable (if not downright drab) cosmetics and hair.

Now, she's just as talented and accomplished, but the marketers have changed her to a differently-dressed made-up smiling blonde performer.

Pretty strange for us early fans to see her like this, but I notice she is not complaining, and not changing back to the way she was.

Besides being a general rant, this thread seems to be an attempt to define or clarify the line between useful marketing advise and arrogant, insulting, or demeaning remarks. It's a tough call, because saying nothing may limit the appeal of the whole band, while saying something is perceived by some people as an insult.

I find it somewhat educational to realize I've always been on the receiving end, and, like it or not, I've benefited from it

You're taking one example and using it to diminish the point of this conversation. I've never heard of Allison Krauss but the fact you used her style of dress to prove your point legitimizes this thread.

[Side1LedZepIV]

As Paul McCartney has said, "We couldn’t hear ourselves when we were live, as there was so much screaming going on."

I'm pretty sure he's talking about girls.

[PearlJamNoCode]

Originally Posted by Side1LedZepIV

As Paul McCartney has said, "We couldn’t hear ourselves when we were live, as there was so much screaming going on."

I'm pretty sure he's talking about girls.

Surely you aren't suggesting that the major issue in our society today is adult men being objectified by teenage girls.

[Rodger Knox]

I'm old enough to have been raised to be a southern gentleman of the old school, so being polite is more important to me than being "politically correct".
I still open doors for women, but I'm prepared to apologize if they are offended by that action, that's the polite thing to do. Women are special, and treating them with anything less than the utmost respect is impolite.

In the workplace, there is no gender. It would not be polite to treat women differently than men.

I do see the contradictions, it's hard to be polite without offending anyone, but there will always be those that are easily offended.

I apologize to anyone that is offended by my perspective.

[HodgdonExtreme]

Originally Posted by PearlJamNoCode

Surely you aren't suggesting that the major issue in our society today is adult men being objectified by teenage girls.

Are you suggesting the major issue in our society today is adult women being objectified by teenage boys?

[PearlJamNoCode]

Originally Posted by HodgdonExtreme

Are you suggesting the major issue in our society today is adult women being objectified by teenage boys?

No. Where did I state anything of that nature?

[HodgdonExtreme]

Originally Posted by PearlJamNoCode

No. Where did I state anything of that nature?

You didn't; it was my interpretation of your post that I quoted.

[jljohn]

Originally Posted by H165

Same goes for men in the entertainment business being told all these same things. The marketing arm and attitude of this business and avocation has lots of power. When you are using a microphone, whether you are on the big stage, or at an open mic, or a local paying gig, or playing free at someone's party you ARE, above all, entertaining.

When I started watching and listening to Allison Krauss, she was the same incredibly talented and accomplished player and performer she is now. Look back at her early performances. Pretty much all the same shapeless dress and unremarkable (if not downright drab) cosmetics and hair.

Now, she's just as talented and accomplished, but the marketers have changed her to a differently-dressed made-up smiling blonde performer.

Pretty strange for us early fans to see her like this, but I notice she is not complaining, and not changing back to the way she was.

Besides being a general rant, this thread seems to be an attempt to define or clarify the line between useful marketing advise and arrogant, insulting, or demeaning remarks. It's a tough call, because saying nothing may limit the appeal of the whole band, while saying something is perceived by some people as an insult.

I find it somewhat educational to realize I've always been on the receiving end, and, like it or not, I've benefited from it

Just to be clear, this thread is not a rant of any kind. It's an attempt to start a constructive conversation about how men treat women in this community (i.e. the acoustic music community--not limited to this forum.) And of course there are unique relationships that allow conversations about the appearance/demeanor/attractiveness of a performer to occur. Of course, a manager or marketer will have frank conversations with a client about how things like appearance and demeanor will impact their clients' reception by their audience. But the client has hired that person to give them this information. This business relationship is not relevant to the point of the thread.

For the purpose of this conversation it might be best if we not muddy the waters by discussing how a man with a unique relationship (i.e. boyfriend, partner, husband, father, manager, etc) might relate to a woman.