Improvising - Fingerstyle

[s0cks]

Hi all, looking for some advice. I've been learning fingerstyle, self-taught, for some time. It's been mostly a lot of fun but I'm starting to get a bit tired.

I spent a lot of time recently on rhythm, and once I was at a level I was happy with things seemed really great. Everything sounded a lot better and I thought I was on my way to guitar heaven! But now I'm sort of just bored of everything I can play. I started to learn some new songs, but even that doesn't illicit much motivation in me.

I've made a couple of my own arrangements too, but really what I want to achieve is the ability to improvise/jam on the fly - using fingerstyle. I just wanna pick up the guitar and let my fingers do the talking.

There is so much out there on improv soloing, but I can't find anything on fingerstyle improv. Is it even possible? Whenever I try I just seem to get stuck fingering open chord progressions, maybe with a few barre chords. And when I try and move up the neck I tend to end up just doing barre chords, which get a bit tiring after a while.

Surely there are ways to play up the higher frets without resorting to barres all the time? I was thinking arpeggios, but once I add in the bass note, it ends up as mostly a barre chord usually.

Anyone got any tips on reaching my goal? It'd be great if I could just pick it up and play something in Am (for example) and go beyond the first few frets. Maybe I just need to keep learning more material, and if I do, then I will. Just need some direction.

[Doug Young]

There are fingerstyle players who improvise, so yes, it's possible. Pierre Bensusan is one who improvises. The late Roland Dyens always opened his shows with a solo improv. There are others as well. Check out Joe Pass. Maybe Eric Skye (min7b5) will weigh in here - he improvises in a fingerstyle way.

I can't tell you how to do it, tho :-) I would say that improvisation in general is often less totally unplanned than we often believe, and there are also degrees of improvisation. At one extreme is the case where you have learned every single note, and play exactly the same every time. At the other, what a lot of people think of as improv, is that you start with a blank slate and make up every single note on the fly. The reality is usually somewhere in between. You might know the chord changes and melody of a tune, and play with some variations each time, just simple changes to timing, or picking patterns, or even dynamics. Further on the scale, you probably have a chord progression, a bass line, probably some licks you know will work, and you're trying to piece them all together in a way that's not entirely planned.

The blues would be a good place to start. See if you can play a 3 chord blues E, A, B7, keeping a steady monotonic bass line going while you play chords and bluesy licks over it. Structure helps - try a simple chord progression like C, Am, Dm, G7 (I, vi, ii, V) and try to maintain that with some rhythm, while seeing what else you can play. You can start with simply the chords, and play around with different notes in the chord as well as others you can reach, then maybe progress to trying to play some melodies. And so on.

This is something I've been interested in, can't say I'm able to do it to my satisfaction, but I keep trying. There's lots of stuff out there on single-line soloing, not so much about fingerstyle guitar improvisation, tho it all applies, it's just not so useful to focus entirely on scales, like a lot of "lead guitar" books. You might check out some things pianists do for inspiration. They have a bit fewer limitations than we have, just with the geometry constraints of the guitar, but conceptually, it's going to be similar. Just keep in mind that rarely is someone making up everything out of whole cloth, there's always some underlying structure, as well as previously practiced licks and ideas that they can return to between bouts of being more adventurous. It may also help to realize that improvisation is basically composition on the fly - if you can't compose something you like, doing it slowly and thoughtfully, you won't be able to do it in real time. So practicing composing, making up melodies, coming up with chord progressions, even if it's not "improvising" seems to me to be a step in the right direction.

[FwL]

You might try spending some quality time working with voice leading.

If you're not familiar with the concept, the idea is to change from one chord to the next with the least amount of movement between notes (voices).

For example changing from E (E G# B) to A (A C# E) the E would stay the same, the G# moves a half step up to A and the B moves a whole step up to C#.

Try voice leading through any basic progression you know at different positions on the neck. That will get you away from barre chords in a hurry.
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[Doug Young]

yeah, I'd agree with that - probably best to avoid barres as much as you can, it restricts your freedom too much. Intervals, voicing leading, knowing where all the triad inversions are up and down the neck, all helpful. Alternate tunings may help. With DADGAD, for example, you can have I, IV, V on open strings (tho the G's a bit high). There are other tunings where you can have various basic bass notes on open strings, freeing you to focus on intervals, triads, and just melodies without as much hassle of fingering bass notes

[rick-slo]

Speaking of motivation, listening to raw improvised playing (if truly improvised playing even exists) I can take in only small dosages. I prefer listening to things that are carefully worked out. So motivation for me is learning (or composing) neat pieces.

Fingerstyle improvising to me (except for some scale work) would include improvising the harmony at the same time as the melody line. You might work up a few variations of some tune (timing changes, chord and progression substitutions). Then you can combine different combinations of those "on the fly" on different play throughs of the tune. Most people can accumulate a collections of different riffs and stick them in here and there in different tunes without too much stress.

[Mr. Jelly]

In my limited way improvising is my favorite guitar pastime. When I just want to play guitar and enjoy it without having to contend with a set piece of music. Just express myself in music. I play a rag blues type style so that is where I am coming from. Most of the chords I use are majors and sevenths with a diminished thrown in now and again. I use minor chords for bridges. I start with a chord and come up with a vibe or figure that strikes me. That sets the key you will be playing in. And it will probably be the hook or what you come back to to hold the improve together. So now at this point you'll need musical movement. Usually I move to the IV or V chord of the key and then back to the main hook or figure. The options are limitless. So to have it makes sense you could can do some sort of blues chord changes, eight or twelve bar blues and back to the hook. Then you can go from the I chord to either a II, V, I or a VI, II, V, I or a III, VI, II, V, I. Throw in a sharp diminished chord for more flavor sometime. But maybe that's just me. Once this starts to sound like it needs a little something more play the relative minor chord changes using minor chords for a bridge. Always returning, at times, to the main figure or hook to hold it together. While all this is going on you can be adding grace notes and playing these changes at different places on the neck of the guitar. Or while you do the changes play one of the chords you are using at a different place up the neck. And last but not least there is always the option to get lost and find a new rhythm or hook and off you go in another direction. It is fun!

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

In my limited way improvising is my favorite guitar pastime. When I just want to play guitar and enjoy it without having to contend with a set piece of music. Just express myself in music. I play a rag blues type style so that is where I am coming from. Most of the chords I use are majors and sevenths with a diminished thrown in now and again. I use minor chords for bridges. I start with a chord and come up with a vibe or figure that strikes me. That sets the key you will be playing in. And it will probably be the hook or what you come back to to hold the improve together. So now at this point you'll need musical movement. Usually I move to the IV or V chord of the key and then back to the main hook or figure. The options are limitless. So to have it makes sense you could can do some sort of blues chord changes, eight or twelve bar blues and back to the hook. Then you can go from the I chord to either a II, V, I or a VI, II, V, I or a III, VI, II, V, I. Throw in a sharp diminished chord for more flavor sometime. But maybe that's just me. Once this starts to sound like it needs a little something more play the relative minor chord changes using minor chords for a bridge. Always returning, at times, to the main figure or hook to hold it together. While all this is going on you can be adding grace notes and playing these changes at different places on the neck of the guitar. Or while you do the changes play one of the chords you are using at a different place up the neck. And last but not least there is always the option to get lost and find a new rhythm or hook and off you go in another direction. It is fun!

I like this. Very nice description!

Somebody has to say this, so this time it will be me...

There is a book on fingerstyle improvising:

http://www.amazon.com/Improvisation-.../dp/1908341580

Tony

[Bikewer]

I'm playing in a jazz chord-melody context most of the time, and I'm always working on improvisation... Fingerstyle.

I'm using mostly 4-finger chords... The usual run of "jazz" chords from the 7th, maj 7th, diminished, augmented...
I feel free to throw in single notes as desired, and often switch back and forth rapidly from chordal passages to single-note passages.

This requires being VERY familiar with the chord forms... Which means for me that I actually use a rather limited repertoire of standard chord forms rather than trying to learn dozens or hundreds of exotic shapes.

I do try to throw in interesting bass lines as well... That's still a work in progress.

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by Bikewer

I'm playing in a jazz chord-melody context most of the time, and I'm always working on improvisation... Fingerstyle.

I'm using mostly 4-finger chords... The usual run of "jazz" chords from the 7th, maj 7th, diminished, augmented...
I feel free to throw in single notes as desired, and often switch back and forth rapidly from chordal passages to single-note passages.

This requires being VERY familiar with the chord forms... Which means for me that I actually use a rather limited repertoire of standard chord forms rather than trying to learn dozens or hundreds of exotic shapes.

I do try to throw in interesting bass lines as well... That's still a work in progress.

I do some of this too. I would like to suggest you look at two of Robert Conti's books for this style:

1. Chord Melody Assembly Line - with this, you will get a complete vocabulary of chord forms to harmonize ANY melody note with a given chord.
He gives you the C major scale with the # and b 5, # and b 9, b7, etc., included. He does all these melody notes with the C major chord, then the F major chord, then the A minor chord, the D minor chord, the G7 chord, then the 4 diminished chords on 3 string sets, the augmented chords on 4 string sets. He does this in such a way that it is really easy to memorize them because he does them in a systematic way that really makes sense. He applies these to a song so you learn how to rapidly create a chord melody solo with them. Then, in an appendix, he gives you several variations of many of these chord forms to refer to as you gain experience. This is not just about the key of C. These are all moveable forms, so you "count up" or "count down" to whatever key you need to be in. Quickly, you will have command of all the keys you typically play in. Conti really has a knack with this. The book comes with a DVD in which he talks you through everything in the book and provides a lot of helpful information.

2. The Formula - with this, you learn how to use what you learned in "Assembly Line" to never have to play the same song the same way twice. You learn how to create an infinite number of ways to harmonize a melody on the spot. This book comes with two DVDs, giving you all the help you might need to really understand this material and put it to use.

I hope this is helpful for you. I honestly don't know of any other learning materials that treat this material so clearly and without imposing limitations. The first book presents a "system" in a sense (not CAGED...), while the second opens the universe of harmony, building on the first book.

Tony

[mr. beaumont]

So, improvising...big topic, I'd say.

Generally, you're not just making it up as you go...not that you can't, but most of what we call improvisation in pop, rock, jazz, bluegrass, whatever, sticks to the form of the tune. It's possible to introduce a new chord progression for an improvised section too, but generally, there's a framework. That's the fun part really, it's a challenge.

So how do we approach the challenge? The first thing for a guitar player who wants to do this in a "solo guitar" style would be to get very familiar with chords and their inversions, up and down the neck. Get familiar with common extensions, they're going to help create your melody...so the chord on paper might be G, but what about G6...Gmaj7...Gmaj9...etc.

That's really all improvisation is--creating a new melody to a tune. Makes it sound simple, right?

To give you more info, I'd have to hear what your playing style is now. You'll make choices in your improv based on the style...if I was doing an instrumental, fingerpicking, folk style tune, I wouldn't break into an Alan Reuss jazz block chord solo for my improv break...

Or, hey, actually...

[Nailpicker]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Speaking of motivation, listening to raw improvised playing (if truly improvised playing even exists) I can take in only small dosages. I prefer listening to things that are carefully worked out. So motivation for me is learning (or composing) neat pieces.

Fingerstyle improvising to me (except for some scale work) would include improvising the harmony at the same time as the melody line. You might work up a few variations of some tune (timing changes, chord and progression substitutions). Then you can combine different combinations of those "on the fly" on different play throughs of the tune. Most people can accumulate a collections of different riffs and stick them in here and there in different tunes without too much stress.

This is the view and approach I take as well. I work up variations of a song, pick and choose those variations as my mood calls for. I'd get bored playing every song in my repertoire exactly the same way each time. Sometimes picking and choosing my variations on the fly comes up with pleasant surprises for me....sometimes not as pleasing

[tbeltrans]

I should add that any recommendation of books, DVDs, etc. are really a starting point for your own experimentation and growth. Over time, one would drift farther and farther away from these materials and further into one's own approach.

With the recommendations for essentially DIY, you are already on your own from the start, and developing your own approach.

It is all good...

Tony

[s0cks]

Thanks guys. I know improv is not an easy skill (and as stated, it always has some underlying structure). It is a bit of a long term goal for me. I just needed guidance on how to get there. Lot of great ideas here, and some books I will look into.

I already understand melody is best to follow chord tones, but I admit, my ability to form chords, on-the-fly, all over the neck is not very good at the moment. So that is something I will start working on, as well as just playing simple riffs and trying to play them in different places on the neck. I think that will tie in well with the voice leading concept.

The other thing I noticed is that I need to build my left hand independence. Especially my ring and little finger. Creating shapes I haven't yet burned into muscle memory doesn't come easily and often leads to a build up of tension. So I figure the best approach here is to build some independence.

Thanks again!

[JohnDWilliams]

This is almost all improvised: https://johnwilliams.hearnow.com/

Twelve bar, drone bass, all in the key of E. Yes, lots of repeated motifs but, through a lot of practice, I have almost total independence between my thumb and fingers. I'm able to keep the bass thump going while playing almost anything I want with my fingers.

I'm working on a couple followup albums that aren't so bluesy. It can be done but it takes work.

[Pitar]

Originally Posted by s0cks

Hi all, looking for some advice. I've been learning fingerstyle, self-taught, for some time. It's been mostly a lot of fun but I'm starting to get a bit tired.

I spent a lot of time recently on rhythm, and once I was at a level I was happy with things seemed really great. Everything sounded a lot better and I thought I was on my way to guitar heaven! But now I'm sort of just bored of everything I can play. I started to learn some new songs, but even that doesn't illicit much motivation in me.

I've made a couple of my own arrangements too, but really what I want to achieve is the ability to improvise/jam on the fly - using fingerstyle. I just wanna pick up the guitar and let my fingers do the talking.

There is so much out there on improv soloing, but I can't find anything on fingerstyle improv. Is it even possible? Whenever I try I just seem to get stuck fingering open chord progressions, maybe with a few barre chords. And when I try and move up the neck I tend to end up just doing barre chords, which get a bit tiring after a while.

Surely there are ways to play up the higher frets without resorting to barres all the time? I was thinking arpeggios, but once I add in the bass note, it ends up as mostly a barre chord usually.

Anyone got any tips on reaching my goal? It'd be great if I could just pick it up and play something in Am (for example) and go beyond the first few frets. Maybe I just need to keep learning more material, and if I do, then I will. Just need some direction.

To be able to start a piece wholly impromptu and finish it with the satisfaction of having played a listenable piece riding strictly on finger picking and fret board savviness is not something you will find documented in a how-to guide. What you're asking me, in essence, is how to tell you how to arrange a musical piece from the bits you have floating around in your musical persona. That's unpossible, much less impossible.

I do what you're looking to do most of my playing time. I have countless (most forgotten) melodies that were derived from making thorough studies of chords and coloring them as my ear directed. I'd pick one chord and play in and out of it as the main feature of the melody just to learn what works and doesn't work for it. By the time I was done with all the minor and major chords I'd pretty much taught my inner ear everything it needed to know about the fretboard to guide my picking hand in creating melodies. You can't learn that by playing published songs repeatedly. You have to just focus on a single aspect, build upon it, move to the next and then use them with each other based on what you've learned from each and how they relate musically (ear). Those aspects are the chords.

I don't know if that inches you closer to an idea about where you want to go but it was basically the method I stumbled upon.